Logging PIC for Complx/HP Endorsements

[BYUFlyr]

Can my students log PIC during the dual flight involving a complex or high-performance endorsement?

-Thanks

 

[NYCPilot]

Sure.

PIC - as sole manipulator, since they are rated (SEL) in the AC.....they just can't ACT as PIC.

 

[Kream926]

as long as they have the endorsment, right?

must recieve groung and flight training and have a log book endorsment to log pic in complex airplnae

 

[midlifeflyer]

No, Kream. NYC had it right. You must have the endorsement in order to =act= as PIC in a comppex airplane.. All you need to =log= the time in the PIC column of the logbook is a pilot certificate with the appropriate aircerft (ASEL or AMEL) on the back.

From my PIC FAQ:
==============================
Rule 1. If you are a recreational, private or commercial pilot, you may log PIC any time you are the sole manipulator of the controls of an aircraft you are rated for. [61.51(e)(3)]

"Rated" means the category and class (and type, if a type rating is necessary for the aircraft) that is listed on the back of your pilot certificate. Nothing else matters. Not instrument ratings. Not endorsements for high performance, complex, or tailwheel aircraft. Not medical currency. Not flight reviews. Not night currency. Nothing. There are no known exceptions.
==============================

 

[nosehair]

[61.51(e)(3)]

Actually, Mark, that's 61.51(e)(1)(i).....

....and to amplify to Kream, since I have lived most of my adult life misreading this regulation: This regulation does not say, "To act as PIC...", it says "to log PIC"...
I just simply ASSUMED we talking about the PIC, the person ACTING as the PIC, and here is the rule that governs the LOGGING by that PIC....but that ain't the way it is written. It simply says a sport,recreational, private, or commercial pilot may log...when he is manipulating the controls, and the word rated in this reg has been determined to mean the ASEL(or whatever) that is typed on your certificate.

Now, I have only been converted to this new way accepting this regulation for a year or two (since I came on these message boards), and I still think it is an oversight by the regulation writers - that the INTENT of the rule was that the logging also meant acting.

Look at 61.51(2) An airline transport pilot may log PIC all the time he is ACTING as PIC of an operation requiring requiring an ATP.

That is meant to cover the Captain acting PIC on an airliner even when he's in the bathroom, but Look! he can't log PIC any other time! He is not covered in 61.51(e)(1)(i)

If you stick to the letter of this regulation (instead of the spirit - which would mean you are ACTING PIC to LOG PIC), A guy with an ATP cannot log any time except when he is PIC on a flight requiring an ATP....

even when he is solo.

 

[skyaddict]

"I still think it is an oversight by the regulation writers - that the INTENT of the rule was that the logging also meant acting."

With respect to this reg. as well as other logging vs acting questions:
Perhaps once upon a time it may have been the intent of some individual regulation writer, that acting was to mean logging, but as far as I can tell, it has never been the intent of the FAA. I once worked for a company that did some contract work for the feds, and when we (and respondents to the pertinent NPRM) brought to their attention that some regulatory re-writes were aligning logging and acting, they (FAA) basically said "oops, we didn't mean to do that", and asked us to fix the proposed re-write back. If I recall correctly, the FAA comments on the responses to the NPRMs have clarified that, over the years, as have FAA legal interpretations. If it was ever changed, all pilots after the reg change would basically be screwed compared to those who built their time before it.

 

[midlifeflyer]

Maybe, it would be interesting to find out for sure, but I really don't think it was an accident. Two reasons:

1. This interpretation has been consistently applied by the FAA for at least 20 years (I haven't seen anything earlier)

2. As early as the 1940's the old CAR certificate and rating requirements were based on "solo" time which, as used in those regs, meant (guess what?) "sole manipulator" (rather than sole occupant of the airplane), exactly the same thing as the later "logged PIC"

So, by whatever name, "sole manipulator" has been the standard for logging flight time toward certificates and ratings for 50-60 years. The name changed; the definition and what it was counted for did not.

The only "oops" I know of was John Lynch's insistence in the FAQ that it was a mistake. Of course, that was based on the 1997 re-write when they =didn't= change even one word, was after he was soundly taken on the carpet for changing official FAA policy without a reg change, and was accompanied by threats of a change that never came to be.

 

[Kream926]

ok wait im confused. there was a debate about this at my school "to log or not to log" that is the question.

here's a scenario:

im a SEL private pilot flying an RG. no complex endorsment flying with my instructor. time goes in SEL box, dual recieved box, but does it go in the PIC box? cause mine didnt until i got the endorsment.


damn these regs

 

[minitour]

an endorsement isn't a "rating" so yes...you should have logged as PIC all time you were sole manipulator of the controls.

-mini

 

[NYCPilot]

ok wait im confused. there was a debate about this at my school "to log or not to log" that is the question.

here's a scenario:

im a SEL private pilot flying an RG. no complex endorsment flying with my instructor. time goes in SEL box, dual recieved box, but does it go in the PIC box? cause mine didnt until i got the endorsment.


dang these regs

Well you have a choice, you're not required to log it, but you can. If you want to log only pure PIC as in Acting PIC, then keep that system. But there are instances where you will need to log PIC as sole manipulator such as in multi building time for insurance purposes. Insurance may require that you have X number of hours PIC, but its a catch 22. You can't get PIC (read: acting PIC) if you can't go out on your own. Flying with an MEI who is acting PIC while you LOG PIC as sole manipulator allows you to build up the time in order to meet PIC insurance minimums.

In your case, you can log PIC if you choose to. During your HP/Complex training, you are entitled to log PIC (sole manipulator in a rated AC) but do not necessarily have to. It still gets logged as dual, no matter what.

My advice is to keep a track and breakdown of the different types of PIC hours. I created my own spreadsheet in MS Excel that has PIC broken down by:

PIC - Student Pilot Solo
PIC - Acting PIC
PIC - Dual as Sole manipulator (rate in AC)