Logging PIC for Complx/HP Endorsements

[BYUFlyr]

Thanks.....

Thanks for the response guys.... It's all clear now.

 

[A Squared]

I did log the hours, but the examiner said I wasn't supposed to log PIC since I wasn't endorsed for flying complex airplanes; but that didn't make much sense to me. That's why I'm asking.

The examiner is wrong. As you are now aware from reading this thread, the FAA legal department has been very clear for a very long time that it is legal to log PIC time in htat situation. It is not unusual for examiners to be incorrect, it happens, perhaps more than it should. THe issue is a little conterintuitive, after all from a logical standpoint, why would you be able to *log* PIC when you are not the PIC? That (understandable) line of reasoning leads some astray.

 

[mattpilot]

The FAA has a very nice FAQ, which discusses this issue.

Its written by John Lynch and its called the Part61FAQ.doc . Either a search on faa.gov or on google.com will help you find it.

 

[nosehair]

2. As early as the 1940's the old CAR certificate and rating requirements were based on "solo" time which, as used in those regs, meant (guess what?) "sole manipulator" (rather than sole occupant of the airplane), exactly the same thing as the later "logged PIC"

So, by whatever name, "sole manipulator" has been the standard for logging flight time toward certificates and ratings for 50-60 years. The name changed; the definition and what it was counted for did not.

Now that's what I'm talkin' about! Some actual history as to the evolution of this "misnomer". So, Mark, where did you learn this tidbit of information? Do you have a reference? I am very interested in these specific "old" regs which you refer to.

 

[johnpeace]

The FAA has a very nice FAQ, which discusses this issue.

Its written by John Lynch and its called the Part61FAQ.doc . Either a search on faa.gov or on google.com will help you find it.

Or just download it here:
http://www.johnpeace.org/pt61FAQ.zip

 

[nosehair]

Look at 61.51(2) An airline transport pilot may log PIC all the time he is ACTING as PIC of an operation requiring requiring an ATP.

That is meant to cover the Captain acting PIC on an airliner even when he's in the bathroom, but Look! he can't log PIC any other time! He is not covered in 61.51(e)(1)(i)

If you stick to the letter of this regulation (instead of the spirit - which would mean you are ACTING PIC to LOG PIC), A guy with an ATP cannot log any time except when he is PIC on a flight requiring an ATP....

even when he is solo.

...what!?...no one has a problem with that??

 

[midlifeflyer]

Now that's what I'm talkin' about! Some actual history as to the evolution of this "misnomer". So, Mark, where did you learn this tidbit of information? Do you have a reference? I am very interested in these specific "old" regs which you refer to.

The FAA maintains a collection. Here's the link to old CAR Part 20

http://dotlibrary1.specialcollection.net/scripts/ws.dll?websearch&site=dot_cars


What you're looking for, for definitions is the Logging Pilot Flight Time section, 20.76, particularly 20.762(b) which says

==============================
The holder of a pilot certificate, other than a student pilot certificate, may log as solo flight time that portion of any flight during which he is the sole manipulator of the controls: Provided, That he may log as solo flight time only 50 percent of any flight time during which a certificated instructor or a certificated airline transport pilot is in the aircraft serving as an instructor for the purpose of reviewing or increasing such pilot's skill; and Provided further, That the holder of a commercial pilot certificate while serving in scheduled air transportation shall log his flight time as provided in Part 61.
==============================

And then compare that to, say the Commercial Pilot requirements in 20.14, particularly 20.146:

==============================
Aeronautical experience. Applicant shall have logged at least 200 hours of solo flight time, of which at least 5 hours shall have been logged within the 60 days immediately preceding the date of filing the application. As part of the foregoing, applicant shall have logged at least 10 hours of solo cross-country flying, which shall include at least one flight over a course of not less than 100 miles with at least three full-stop landings at different points on such course. Such experience shall be certified to by some person, other than the applicant, having direct knowledge of the same: Provided, That a graduate of a commercial pilot course of a certificated flying school shall be deemed to have met the requirements of this section upon presentation of his certificate of graduation within 30 days thereof.
==============================

Won't even find the phrase "pilot in command" in Part 20.

Interesting what you find when recuperating from surgery.

 

[midlifeflyer]

...what!?...no one has a problem with that??

Not me. I read =way= too many statutes, regulations and cases to worry about inconsequential inconsistencies in wording.

 

[A Squared]

As early as the 1940's the old CAR certificate and rating requirements were based on "solo" time which, as used in those regs, meant (guess what?) "sole manipulator" (rather than sole occupant of the airplane), exactly the same thing as the later "logged PIC"

I don't have a copy of the 1940 CAR and I haven't taken the time to register to get acess to the link you posted, but I do have a copy ofhte 1950 CAR, and it says in part 20:

20.81 Solo Flight TIme, Solo flight time shall mean the flight time during which a pilot is the sole occupant of an aircraft.

That seems fairly clear to me.

Won't even find the phrase "pilot in command" in Part 20.

THat may have been true in 1940, but it was certinly not true in 1950.

20.80 Pilot in Command Pilot in command shall mean the pilot responsible for the operation and safety of the aircraft during the time defined as flight time

 

[midlifeflyer]

Indeed. It's hard to navigate the site, but there appears to be a 1949 revision that begins using different terminology. Some of the "solo" time for the commercial becomes "pilot in command time." And the definition of PIC time you cite appears.

But on the historical logging issue? Open your book to CAR 43.43 and I think you'll find the now-famous FAR 61.51 language:

==============================
43.44 Logging of flight time

1. Pilot in command. A private *** commercial pilot may log flight time as pilot in command that flight time during which he is the sole manipulated of the controls of an aircraft for which he is rated or that flight time during which he is the sole occupant of the aircraft. A flight instructor may log flight time as pilot in command that flight time during which he is serving as a flight instructor. All flight time so logged may be credited toward the total flight time required for a higher pilot rating.
==============================

The connection between the terms "solo" and "PIC" for certificate logging purposes doesn't seem to miss a beat. Sure sounds like "logged PIC" for the purpose of qualification for certificates and ratings being different from "real" command responsibility was intentional from the very beginning.