Logging Piaggio Time

[Paradoxus]

I don't think that's what he's saying at all. A contract, I think any will agree, fosters a higher level of professionalism by providing a layer of protection (of professional integrity) that simply isn't there otherwise.

The interests of the skilled laborer, generally, is in performance of duties to the highest standard possible--for as much compensation as possible. Generally, (and, boy, do I NOT mean to imply this is necessarily the case with Avant) the interests and functions of management are such that they are set up in opposition to the interests of the skilled laborer.

That's simply the way it is. Are there exceptions? Always.

Unification of a skilled labor force under negotiated contract is fundamentally a way for professionals to say "we're here to play ball."

Seems to me that the interests and functions of management, by definition, are in opposition to the interests of labor (skilled or unskilled). The function of a bargaining unit on the property is to establish and codify the conditions under which the two opposing interest conduct business.
I have worked at both union and non-union operations. My union shop employment had no more or less of a level of professionalism than my non-union gigs. The primary difference was that the players at the union shop had more lucrative overtime provisions and the opportunity to invoke Big Brother if they didn't get their way.
Professionalism is a state of mind, NOT a hammer to wield against your employer. The real professionals are the folks who do the right thing because it's the right thing to do.

Strike what I said, I completely agree. :beer:

 

[B19 Flyer]

I don't think that's what he's saying at all. A contract, I think any will agree, fosters a higher level of professionalism by providing a layer of protection (of professional integrity) that simply isn't there otherwise.

The interests of the skilled laborer, generally, is in performance of duties to the highest standard possible--for as much compensation as possible. Generally, (and, boy, do I NOT mean to imply this is necessarily the case with Avant) the interests and functions of management are such that they are set up in opposition to the interests of the skilled laborer.

That's simply the way it is. Are there exceptions? Always.

Unification of a skilled labor force under negotiated contract is fundamentally a way for professionals to say "we're here to play ball."

I don't agree. Unions have consistently watered down critical safety programs such as ASAP and FOQA and prevented other safety programs such as cameras on the flight deck. Then, they have built safeguards into the grievance process that let pilots think they can get away with things that they otherwise couldn't. As broke agreed with me on a different thread, the grievance process will protect pilots that should be driving dump trucks rather than flying airplanes.

Any thoughts of professionalism isn't because it's unionized, it's because the hiring process and culture is better. It doesn't take a union to be professional. Unions will impede good safety programs for the sake of privacy. If their pilots were as professional as they make them out to be, there would be no reason to have privacy concerns.

 

[glasspilot]

I don't think it's fair to say unions are anti safety or impede safety either.

ALPA fought hard to get TCAS. Airlines didn't want to pay for the expense.

ALPA does not support cockpit cameras and neither do I. Sure it would be nice to see the video on some accidents, but that is way outweighed, in my opinion, by two facts;

1. They will get released. They swore CVRs would never be released to the public and just be used for accident investigation. Guess what, CVRs get released. It's bad enough a pilots family has to have a lost loved one but to have to hear their final moment is too much. Imagine if they got to see Daddy die too.

2. We work as a crew. We need free comunication and any fear that the boss / fed may be sitting our shoulder will do nothing but interfear with that communication.

Regardless, it's not fair to say unions are against safety.

 

[Paradoxus]

I don't agree. Unions have consistently watered down critical safety programs such as ASAP and FOQA and prevented other safety programs such as cameras on the flight deck. Then, they have built safeguards into the grievance process that let pilots think they can get away with things that they otherwise couldn't. As broke agreed with me on a different thread, the grievance process will protect pilots that should be driving dump trucks rather than flying airplanes.

What a sad attempt at levity. I say levity, because that has got to be, hands down, the goofiest justification for railroading pilots yet submitted on these fora.

I would have preferred honesty of intent. Despicable. uke:

Any thoughts of professionalism isn't because it's unionized, it's because the hiring process and culture is better. It doesn't take a union to be professional. Unions will impede good safety programs for the sake of privacy. If their pilots were as professional as they make them out to be, there would be no reason to have privacy concerns.

Yes indeed, and an honest, law abiding citizen ought to have nothing to fear in government raping of privacy either, eh? After all, if you're conducting yourself in a proper manner, what would you have to fear in surveillance?

 

[DelphinDriver]

I don't think that's what he's saying at all. A contract, I think any will agree, fosters a higher level of professionalism by providing a layer of protection (of professional integrity) that simply isn't there otherwise.

The interests of the skilled laborer, generally, is in performance of duties to the highest standard possible--for as much compensation as possible. Generally, (and, boy, do I NOT mean to imply this is necessarily the case with Avant) the interests and functions of management are such that they are set up in opposition to the interests of the skilled laborer.

That's simply the way it is. Are there exceptions? Always.

Unification of a skilled labor force under negotiated contract is fundamentally a way for professionals to say "we're here to play ball."

Seems to me that the interests and functions of management, by definition, are in opposition to the interests of labor (skilled or unskilled). The function of a bargaining unit on the property is to establish and codify the conditions under which the two opposing interest conduct business.
I have worked at both union and non-union operations. My union shop employment had no more or less of a level of professionalism than my non-union gigs. The primary difference was that the players at the union shop had more lucrative overtime provisions and the opportunity to invoke Big Brother if they didn't get their way.
Professionalism is a state of mind, NOT a hammer to wield against your employer. The real professionals are the folks who do the right thing because it's the right thing to do.

Best dang post of this whole thread