logging multi PIC

[highflying]

when someone does their multi training and logges acting PIC for their solo part of the requirements does that get counted toward the overall PIC time? Or does it only count as PIC time for the rating? Does this question make any sense?

 

[bobbysamd]

PIC time

14 CFR 61.51(e) sets forth the criteria for logging PIC time. 14 CFR 61.51(e)(4) sets forth the circumstances under which student pilots may log PIC time:

(4) A student pilot may log pilot-in-command time only when the student pilot --

(i) Is the sole occupant of the aircraft or is performing the duties of pilot of command of an airship requiring more than one pilot flight crewmember;

(ii) Has a current solo flight endorsement as required under §61.87 of this part; and

(iii) Is undergoing training for a pilot certificate or rating.

(emphasis added)

I could not find any differentiation in the reg between "student pilot" PIC time and "certificated pilot" PIC time. Therefore, I see no reason why your student PIC time as set forth above cannot count for overall PIC time.

For what it's worth, this is a change from at least ten years ago. Back then, student pilots could only log their solo time as "solo." Only recreational or better pilots could log time as PIC.

After your earn your multi, further training that you receive in the airplane should be logged as PIC because you are "sole manipulator." Of course, total, dual and everything else should be logged appropriately.

Hope that helps. By the way, who is letting you fly their twin on a student endorsement?

 

[highflying]

Let me try and cear this up some. After I had my instrument rating and private I did my multi commercial before the single commerical. Per the FAR's you must have 10 hours of solo flight in multi airplane or 10 hours of flight time performing the duties of PIC in a multi airplane with an authorized instructor (either of which may be credited towards the flight time required)

My instructor told me that at the time, that the 10 hours of solo time (when I was flying with my instructor) is considered Acting PIC and would not be counted toward my total PIC time. And that I wouldnt actually have any Multi PIC until the practical test and recieving the rating?

So then my queston would be:

Lets say its took me 30 hours to before my instructor signed me off for my checkride.

Of those 30 hours 10 of them are considered ACTING PIC when the instructor was in the plane with me.

Lets say the checkride took 1 hour and I passed.

What would be my Multi PIC total??

would it be 11 hours (the 10 acting PIC and the 1hr checkride)
Or would it be 1 hr for the checkride?

Any answers would help I think I am just confusing myself!!!

 

[bobbysamd]

PIC Time

I am a little confused. I gather that you did not have a Private Multi before you obtained your Commercial Multi. I have never heard of logging time as Acting PIC - but it's been a while for me. Once again, I see no differentiation in 14 CFR 61.51 between "acting" PIC and ordinary PIC.

Assuming that you did not have a Private multi before your Commercial multi, I would have written up your time as total time, multi time and dual received, plus night, instrument, etc. Your practical and everything thereafter counts as PIC. 14 CFR 61.51(e)(1)-(3). Therefore, your one hour practical is your only multi PIC.

But that's what I would do. I was brought up learning that no PIC time can be logged until one is rated in category, class and/or type. I can see a case made for logging the time pursuant to 14 CFR 61.51(4)(iii) because you are undergoing training for a pilot certificate or rating, with a Commercial certificate and multiengine rating certainly qualifying as both.

 

[highflying]

OK well thanks for the help. I do believe that you are right. One question though. You said: " I was brought up learning that no PIC time can be logged until one is rated in category, class and/or type" Then what did you do when you where a student pilot. Did you not log PIC when you where solo??

 

[midlifeflyer]

You said: " I was brought up learning that no PIC time can be logged until one is rated in category, class and/or type" Then what did you do when you where a student pilot. Did you not log PIC when you where solo??

The regulatory language that permits a soloing student pilot to log PIC time was part of a 1997 FAR Part 61 revision. Before then, the only thing that it was countable toward was solo time requirements.

Bobby is also correct in his assessment that the alternative "performing the duties of a PIC" with a CFI does not permit logging PIC time. 61.51 constitutes the known universe of what may be logged and doesn't account for the 61.129(b)(4) insurance-driven option to solo flight time.

There is a Part 61 FAQ that addresses the issue (Q&A-3). It's fairly long and goes into the history of the change, but the bottom line is the revision that permits "performing the duties" with a CFI instead of real solo time

==============================
...does not permit an applicant to log the flight time required under § 61.129(b)(4) as PIC flight time under § 61.51(e)
==============================

 

[bobbysamd]

Logging solo time

You said: " I was brought up learning that no PIC time can be logged until one is rated in category, class and/or type" Then what did you do when you where a student pilot. Did you not log PIC when you where solo??

Nope. I logged it as solo time. When I was dual with my instructor, he wrote it up as total time, single-engine time, dual received, and whatever else, i.e. x-c, night, hood. This was in 1982 (!).

 

[bobbysamd]

One clarification

My instructor told me that at the time, that the 10 hours of solo time (when I was flying with my instructor) is considered Acting PIC . . . .

It cannot be considered as solo time because you are not the sole occupant of the aircraft. 14 CFR 61.51(e)(4)(i).

Hope that helps a little more.

 

[highflying]

Thanks guys for helping me clear it up.

 

[Weasil]

These hours done with an instructor onboard can be used as PIC time in one exception. that is to meet the 100hrs of PIC time for the commercial checkride, but not for the MEI