logging multi PIC

[highflying]

when someone does their multi training and logges acting PIC for their solo part of the requirements does that get counted toward the overall PIC time? Or does it only count as PIC time for the rating? Does this question make any sense?

 

[bobbysamd]

PIC time

14 CFR 61.51(e) sets forth the criteria for logging PIC time. 14 CFR 61.51(e)(4) sets forth the circumstances under which student pilots may log PIC time:

(4) A student pilot may log pilot-in-command time only when the student pilot --

(i) Is the sole occupant of the aircraft or is performing the duties of pilot of command of an airship requiring more than one pilot flight crewmember;

(ii) Has a current solo flight endorsement as required under §61.87 of this part; and

(iii) Is undergoing training for a pilot certificate or rating.

(emphasis added)

I could not find any differentiation in the reg between "student pilot" PIC time and "certificated pilot" PIC time. Therefore, I see no reason why your student PIC time as set forth above cannot count for overall PIC time.

For what it's worth, this is a change from at least ten years ago. Back then, student pilots could only log their solo time as "solo." Only recreational or better pilots could log time as PIC.

After your earn your multi, further training that you receive in the airplane should be logged as PIC because you are "sole manipulator." Of course, total, dual and everything else should be logged appropriately.

Hope that helps. By the way, who is letting you fly their twin on a student endorsement?

 

[highflying]

Let me try and cear this up some. After I had my instrument rating and private I did my multi commercial before the single commerical. Per the FAR's you must have 10 hours of solo flight in multi airplane or 10 hours of flight time performing the duties of PIC in a multi airplane with an authorized instructor (either of which may be credited towards the flight time required)

My instructor told me that at the time, that the 10 hours of solo time (when I was flying with my instructor) is considered Acting PIC and would not be counted toward my total PIC time. And that I wouldnt actually have any Multi PIC until the practical test and recieving the rating?

So then my queston would be:

Lets say its took me 30 hours to before my instructor signed me off for my checkride.

Of those 30 hours 10 of them are considered ACTING PIC when the instructor was in the plane with me.

Lets say the checkride took 1 hour and I passed.

What would be my Multi PIC total??

would it be 11 hours (the 10 acting PIC and the 1hr checkride)
Or would it be 1 hr for the checkride?

Any answers would help I think I am just confusing myself!!!

 

[bobbysamd]

PIC Time

I am a little confused. I gather that you did not have a Private Multi before you obtained your Commercial Multi. I have never heard of logging time as Acting PIC - but it's been a while for me. Once again, I see no differentiation in 14 CFR 61.51 between "acting" PIC and ordinary PIC.

Assuming that you did not have a Private multi before your Commercial multi, I would have written up your time as total time, multi time and dual received, plus night, instrument, etc. Your practical and everything thereafter counts as PIC. 14 CFR 61.51(e)(1)-(3). Therefore, your one hour practical is your only multi PIC.

But that's what I would do. I was brought up learning that no PIC time can be logged until one is rated in category, class and/or type. I can see a case made for logging the time pursuant to 14 CFR 61.51(4)(iii) because you are undergoing training for a pilot certificate or rating, with a Commercial certificate and multiengine rating certainly qualifying as both.

 

[highflying]

OK well thanks for the help. I do believe that you are right. One question though. You said: " I was brought up learning that no PIC time can be logged until one is rated in category, class and/or type" Then what did you do when you where a student pilot. Did you not log PIC when you where solo??

 

[midlifeflyer]

You said: " I was brought up learning that no PIC time can be logged until one is rated in category, class and/or type" Then what did you do when you where a student pilot. Did you not log PIC when you where solo??

The regulatory language that permits a soloing student pilot to log PIC time was part of a 1997 FAR Part 61 revision. Before then, the only thing that it was countable toward was solo time requirements.

Bobby is also correct in his assessment that the alternative "performing the duties of a PIC" with a CFI does not permit logging PIC time. 61.51 constitutes the known universe of what may be logged and doesn't account for the 61.129(b)(4) insurance-driven option to solo flight time.

There is a Part 61 FAQ that addresses the issue (Q&A-3). It's fairly long and goes into the history of the change, but the bottom line is the revision that permits "performing the duties" with a CFI instead of real solo time

==============================
...does not permit an applicant to log the flight time required under § 61.129(b)(4) as PIC flight time under § 61.51(e)
==============================

 

[bobbysamd]

Logging solo time

You said: " I was brought up learning that no PIC time can be logged until one is rated in category, class and/or type" Then what did you do when you where a student pilot. Did you not log PIC when you where solo??

Nope. I logged it as solo time. When I was dual with my instructor, he wrote it up as total time, single-engine time, dual received, and whatever else, i.e. x-c, night, hood. This was in 1982 (!).

 

[bobbysamd]

One clarification

My instructor told me that at the time, that the 10 hours of solo time (when I was flying with my instructor) is considered Acting PIC . . . .

It cannot be considered as solo time because you are not the sole occupant of the aircraft. 14 CFR 61.51(e)(4)(i).

Hope that helps a little more.

 

[highflying]

Thanks guys for helping me clear it up.

 

[Weasil]

These hours done with an instructor onboard can be used as PIC time in one exception. that is to meet the 100hrs of PIC time for the commercial checkride, but not for the MEI

 

[avbug]

Weasil,

You are correct on both counts. The examiner and FSDO were not. (which is largely irrelevant, as it was accepted anyway).

The FAA altered the regulation several years ago to enable a student in a multi engine airplane to fulfill the requirement either in solo flight, or by "...performing the duties of pilot in command in a multiengine airplane...". This was a concession to allow a student to meet the regulation while acting within the constraints of insurance requirements and those of various operators or schools.

The FAA never altered the requirements for logging pilot in command time.

A very important distinction is that acting as pilot in command, and logging pilot in command, are not the same thing.

In this case, the student is performing the duties of pilot in command, but is NOT acting as pilot in command. Acting as pilot in command requires being rated in the aircraft (cateogry and class, and type if appropriate); the student is not rated in the airplane, and cannot act as pilot in command. Instead, the student may perform the duties of PIC, but may not hold the responsibility.

Under 61.51(e), logging of pilot in command, no provision exists for the logging of this flight time as pilot in command time. A student must log it as instruction received, with the notation that the flight time has been performed in accordance with 61.129(b)(4), and that the student has performed the duties of pilot in command.

The student cannot act as pilot in command, nor can the student log the flight time as such.

 

[SierraPilot]

While we all know that acting as pilot in command, and logging pilot in command, are not the same thing. I would suggest that even if the intent was to allow a student working on his multi-engine to perform the duties of PIC while NOT acting PIC, 61.51 would still allow you to log those 10 hours under 61.129 PIC requirements as you would still fall under sole manipulator of the controls provision, and since 61.129 allows supervised solo's, I would infer you could log it as SOLO, and PIC, since the instructor is not their for the purpose of instruction. Am I reading to much into this?

Ryan

 

[Weasil]

Sierra Pilot,
I had this conversation with Rich Batchelder and the Oakland FSDO once years ago. Does rich still do checkrides at Sierra?

He said that you could count those 10 hours towards the 15 PIC for the MEI. In fact he did so on several occasions and issued MEI certificates.
So did the Oakland FSDO. Everything I've read since then indicates this is incorrect. You can count those hours as PIC to meet the requirements of 61.129 but that's as far as it goes.

They are not solo hours (because someone else is onboard). Read what avbug wrote, he is correct.

 

[SierraPilot]

Yeah rich still does checkrides for Sierra.. although I havent flown with him yet.. I've used RJ for my checkrides although I am planning on going with Rich for the Comm-multi checkride.

Ryan