Logging Level D sim time

[midlifeflyer]

As in terms of logging time.

I know what you meant. You can connect the dots, or rather the definitions. If what you are logging is "flight" time, it must be done in an "aircraft."

In addition to the definition of "aircraft" checlk out the definitions of "flight time" and teh realted but different "pilot time."

Then look at 61.51 and see what it allows you to log.

 

[some_dude]

I don't think so. Say you went to LR-35 initial and logged 24 hours of Lear 35 time in the Level C (or B or D, same difference) sim. Then you flew 100 hours in a Lear 35. You have now logged 124 hours of Lear 35 time.

When you then put your time into the electronic application, it will indeed match your logbook.

Personally, I think you should be able to log it. The regs don't say you can't (in fact they say you CAN), and if an employer wants you to exclude any sim time, they should say that on their application.

Do yourself a favor and log it as sim only. Eventually all airline apps will be electronic. Fedex, southwest, and several different airlines use airlineapps.com. These apps have you break out every freaking airplane type and at the end of the app your times are added up. If you included sim time your total time on the electronic app will not match your logbook.

 

[lawfly]

I don't think so. Say you went to LR-35 initial and logged 24 hours of Lear 35 time in the Level C (or B or D, same difference) sim. Then you flew 100 hours in a Lear 35. You have now logged 124 hours of Lear 35 time.


Actually, I think you need a C or D to do a sim-only type rating, at least according to Part 61, which references Part 142. Also, I believe that the ATP/type rating PTS provides a "task vs. simulation credit" chart, and that indicates a few maneuvers for which sim credit is given only in a C or D.
An applicant for an initial type rating who does not meet the requisite experience criteria (61.63, 61.157--for a sim-only, unrestricted type rating) and who obtains his/her rating in a (C or D) sim-only program will have a limitation on the type rating which will probably require 15-25 hours of supervised PIC in the airplane. In your hypothetical, say the newly rated pilot has his/her 24 hours of sim, with a limitation on the type rating (assuming pilot does not meet the experience requirements for unrestricted sim-only type rating), and then acquires the 25 airplane hours needed to remove the limitation. Does that person now have 49 hours "in the Lear 35"?
(the 24 hours in the sim, and the 25 hours in the airplane to remove the limitation on the type rating) Consider that had the type rating been accomplished in an airplane, not a sim, the same pilot's type rating would be unrestricted ab initio. And the restricted pilot may not simply log more sim time to remove the restriction.

This might be an area where there is some ambiguity, but I think the pilot in your 124 hour hypo has 24 hours sim (Lear 35 sim, if you prefer) and 100 hours "in a Lear 35". But, as I said, this area is not without some ambiguity.

I recall seeing some discussion of this (logging of sim time) on one of the sim school's websites, but can't find it now.

Incidentally, it is the practice of a couple of IGIs I know at an approved school (who are not CFIIs) to act as authorized instuctors within the meaning of the FARs when it comes to instrument currency time (and possibly other instrument dual, I don't know) in the school's FTD. Just thought I'd throw that out there. Kind of suggests (to me, anyway) that the time spent with these IGIs on the FTD is not "flight time". And, although this partcular FTD supposedly replicates a PA-31, most FTDs don't replicate a particular type. The original post was about Level D sim time. But note that most of the FAR references to logging (at least the ones cited earlier in this thread, e.g., 61.51) don't distinguish between FTD, sim, or between different levels, so type replication might not matter when it comes to logging as sim, flight, total time, etc.

 

[pilotviolin]

Just wondering about who is responding here. Midlife and others; have you ever flown a level D sim? I got my type in one and crossed the airport with "no time" in the aircraft, and flew the acceptance flight on our new plane. Should I log the time? Think about it.

 

[midlifeflyer]

Just wondering about who is responding here. Midlife and others; have you ever flown a level D sim?

Nope. But I don't think you need to fly a level D sim or even a "real" 757 to understand the rules about how you log the time.

The discussion isn't about the quality of the Level D time or its equivalence to the "real" thing. We all know that it is. That's why, for example, the rules say that you may log simulator landings if the simulator certification says so. It's about a bunch of artificial FAA rules about what columns you are allowed write things in your logbook.

 

[flx757]

Just wondering about who is responding here. Midlife and others; have you ever flown a level D sim? I got my type in one and crossed the airport with "no time" in the aircraft, and flew the acceptance flight on our new plane. Should I log the time? Think about it.

I have flown many, many hours in Level C and D sims. I have gotten several type ratings entirely in the simulator and have given numerous type ratings in them. Sim time is sim time. It is not "flight time". It is not the "same as an airplane" when it comes to logging the time.

 

[Vastly Underemp]

jschroed, I beg to differ.....

I personally know of a pilot that had his ass handed to him at a Delta interview for logging sim time as flight time and trying to defend the practice during his interview. Needless to say, he did not get the job. Try to think of it this way. How much level D sim time can you have when you've got 1500 TT? 50 hours? 100 hours? How much when you've got 5000 TT? 300 hours? Do those sim numbers really make such a difference to your Total Time bottom line? So much of a difference that you'd get the job over someone with 300 hours less than you? We all log time for 2 reasons: currency and interviews (3 if you want to count pride). If a questionable practice of logging time (in the eyes of an interviewer) is discovered you can kiss the job goodbye....why take the chance?

 

[Checks]

I would only log Sim time if the sim was ripped from the ground during a tornado and was propelled into flight.

If you cant get violated doing it then you cant log it!
​

 

[pilotviolin]

Thanks for the good insight. As I said before, I never trust an faa guy. I will ask FSI next month what they think.

 

[some_dude]

Many of the insurance applications, and at least a few job applications I've seen refer to "Pilot Time" rather than "Flight Time." Per the regulations, wouldn't approved sim time count as "Pilot Time" even if it is not "Flight Time?"

 

[midlifeflyer]

Many of the insurance applications, and at least a few job applications I've seen refer to "Pilot Time" rather than "Flight Time." Per the regulations, wouldn't approved sim time count as "Pilot Time" even if it is not "Flight Time?"

Yes. FAR 61.1(b)(12):

==============================
Pilot time means that time in which a person -
(I) Serves as a required pilot flight crewmember;
(ii) Receives training from an authorized instructor in an aircraft, flight simulator, or flight training device; or
(iii) Gives training as an authorized instructor in an aircraft, flight simulator, or flight training device.
==============================

This is the source of all those "total time" arguments you see. Truth is "total time" doesn't really mean anything. You're either talking about total "pilot time" or total "flight time."

 

[YGBSM]

Also, is night time on NVG's loggable as night?

Classic.

 

[rod farva]

Classic?

 

[YGBSM]

Classic?

Oh yes. That's a flight info classic.

Why would night not be night with NVGs on? Is night still night if you have a FLIR? How about during the periods that your required 2 D-cell flashlight is illuminated in the cockpit?

 

[onthebeach]

>>I think you guys make way to big of a deal about logging time. Remember the old saying "Fly what you can, log what you need.".<<

If you don't know, or maybe don't care, about this rule, what else don't you know or care about?

Just a question, designed to foster an insight.

 

[rod farva]

You're right. My bad. I'm on my way to the FAA to turn in my tickets. Thanks on the beach, you REALLY fostered an insight. What an awesome place to ask questions. Lesson learned.

 

[onthebeach]

You're welcome, but of course you didn't really get the point, which is a shame, mostly for you.

If you really did "turn in your tickets," it might be a good thing. First and foremost for you; secondarily, for others.

The thing I love most about America is that, by and large, people can do as they please. On the other hand, our weakness is that when the consequences of one's actions occur, as they are bound to do, we are very reluctant to connect cause and effect.

When you have been a professional pilot for five years, you will be the kind of pilot you will be for the rest of your life. Habits and mindsets, once established, are difficult or impossible to change.

It is very easy to take a good man and make a good pilot. It is impossible to take a good pilot and make a good man.

I like to make this sort of post every now and again because it has the amazing effect of inducing repliers to reveal, in a few short sentences, all about themselves.

I never get any reward for my efforts, which is bad; on the other hand, I don't expect any, which is good; nor do they cost me anything, which is even better.

You may now have the last word, so by all means make it as vitriolic, asinine, and/or sarcastic as you are able.

 

[scubabri]

61.159 differentiates between "flight time" and "total time", but there is no definition that I can find for "total time"

(a) Except as provided in paragraphs (b), (c), and (d) of this section, a person who is applying for an airline transport pilot certificate with an airplane category and class rating must have at least 1,500 hours of total time as a pilot that includes at least:
(1) 500 hours of cross-country flight time.


but based on this statement:

(5) Not more than 100 hours of the total aeronautical experience requirements of paragraph (a) of this section may be obtained in a flight simulator or flight training device that represents an airplane, provided the aeronautical experience was obtained in an approved course conducted by a training center certificated under part 142 of this chapter.

I would guess that total aeronautical experience is what they are talking about when they say "total time"

so I guess that when a application asks for flight time, that would not include simulator time, but when it asks for total time, it would.

sb

 

[DavTheViking]

If Feds will give you a rating in it without even touching an airplane, LOG IT.

 

[midlifeflyer]

61.159 differentiates between "flight time" and "total time", but there is no definition that I can find for "total time"

(a) Except as provided in paragraphs (b), (c), and (d) of this section, a person who is applying for an airline transport pilot certificate with an airplane category and class rating must have at least 1,500 hours of total time as a pilot that includes at least:

I'll change the bolded portion just a bit:

(a) Except as provided in paragraphs (b), (c), and (d) of this section, a person who is applying for an airline transport pilot certificate with an airplane category and class rating must have at least 1,500 hours of total time as a pilot that includes at least

"Pilot time" =is= defined.

61.159 is diferentiating beween differentiates between "flight time" and total "pilot time", not between flight time and some nebulous undefined concept called "total time"