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LOGGING HOURs QUESTION

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ftld81

Member
Joined
Sep 20, 2006
Posts
12
Hey guys, can someone please shed some light on this. I am currently flying SIC in a cessna 402 and logging the hours PIC. I am checked out SIC in the 402. Am i logging these hours legal? I read somewhere that an SIC can be assigned to the flight if the 402's Autopilot is inop and your flying IFR.

What are your thoughts?
 
Hey guys, can someone please shed some light on this. I am currently flying SIC in a cessna 402 and logging the hours PIC. I am checked out SIC in the 402. Am i logging these hours legal? I read somewhere that an SIC can be assigned to the flight if the 402's Autopilot is inop and your flying IFR.

What are your thoughts?

If you only have a 135 SIC check in the 402 you can only log SIC during 135 ops. Part 91 you can log PIC only if the other guy isn't.
 
Airnet's SIC program, allows the pilots to log PIC when manipulating the controls.

Are the SICs at Airnet 135 PIC qualified (PIC type rated)? If you're not trained or checked out as a PIC in the aircraft, on 135 legs you cannot log PIC time.
 
They do...Read up on 61.55..

They aircraft or operations can require 2 pilots.
Their SIC program is a good way to build up your total time.

I just looked at 61.55, I didn't see any mention of an SIC acting as PIC. Maybe I missed it. I still don't see how someone that doesn't have a PIC check or meet the requirements under 135 can act as PIC.

Does Airnet give their SICs a PIC type in the aircraft? If they did, then what you are saying would make sense.
 
.

There's a difference between the assigned PIC and acting PIC....in my case...I do all the flying and the captains read the paper. I'm check out SIC but i'm doing the actual flying..therefore we can both log PIC..
 
The SIC's dont really log PIC time, they log the SIC and total time only..Airnet's intent is to get them to 1200 hrs TT asap.

From reading FAR 135.243 (c), you can't serve as PIC until you get to 1200 TT. On 135 legs, you would be able to log SIC. On the 91 legs, you would be able to get the PIC time.
 
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I just looked at 61.55, I didn't see any mention of an SIC acting as PIC. Maybe I missed it. I still don't see how someone that doesn't have a PIC check or meet the requirements under 135 can act as PIC.

Does Airnet give their SICs a PIC type in the aircraft? If they did, then what you are saying would make sense.

It was in the first paragraph..
 
Here's a letter from the FAA regarding these issues for Part 135 operators:

March 26, 1992


Mr. Michael G. Tarsa


Dear Mr. Tarsa:

Thank you for your letter of April 3, 1991, in which you ask questions about logging pilot in command (PIC) and second in command (SIC) time when operating under Part 135 of the Federal Aviation Regulations (FAR). We apologize that staff shortages, regulatory matters, and interpretation requests received prior to yours prevented us from answering your questions sooner.

Your letter presents the following scenario: a Part 135 certificate holder conducts operations in multiengine airplanes under instrument flight rules (IFR). The operator has approval to conduct operations without an SIC using an approved autopilot under the provisions of FAR 135.105. The operator has assigned a fully qualified pilot, who has had a Part 135 competency check, to act as SIC in an aircraft that does not require two pilots under its type certification. Although FAR 135.101 requires an SIC for Part 135 operations in IFR conditions, the autopilot approval is an exception to that requirement.

You correctly state that while the SIC is flying the airplane, he can log PIC time in accordance with FAR 61.51(c)(2)(i) because he is appropriately rated and current, and is the sole manipulator of the controls. Additionally, he has passed the competency checks required for Part 135 operations, at least as SIC.

You then ask two questions. The first asks whether the pilot designated as PIC by the employer, as required by FAR 135.109, can log PIC time while the SIC is actually flying the airplane. The answer is yes.

FAR 1.1 defines pilot in command:

(1) Pilot in command means the pilot responsible for the operation and safety of an aircraft during flight time.


FAR 91.3 describes the pilot in command:

(a) The pilot in command of an aircraft is directly responsible for, and is the final authority as to, the operation of that aircraft.

There is a difference between serving as PIC and logging PIC time. Part 61 deals with logging flight time, and it is important to note that section 61.51, Pilot logbooks, only regulates the recording of:

(a) The aeronautical training and experience used to meet the requirements for a certificate or rating, or the recent flight experience requirements of this part.

FAR 61.51(c) addresses logging of pilot time:

(2) Pilot in command flight time. (i) A recreational, private, or commercial pilot may log pilot in command time only that flight time during which that pilot is the sole manipulator of the controls of an aircraft for which the pilot is rated, or when the pilot is the sole occupant of the aircraft, or, except for a recreational pilot, when acting as pilot in command of an aircraft on which more than one pilot is required under the type certification of the aircraft or the regulations under which the flight is conducted.

(ii) An airline transport pilot may log as pilot in command time all of the flight time during which he acts as pilot in command.

(iii) (omitted).

(3) Second in command flight time. A pilot may log as second in command time all flight time during which he acts as second in command of an aircraft on which more than one pilot is required under the type certification of the aircraft, or the regulations under which the flight is conducted.

As you can see, there are two ways to log pilot in command flight time that are pertinent to your question. The first is as the pilot responsible for the safety and operation of an aircraft during flight time. If a pilot is designated as PIC for a flight by the certificate holder, as required by FAR 135.109, that person is pilot in command for the entire flight, no matter who is actually manipulating the controls of the aircraft, because that pilot is responsible for the safety and operation of the aircraft.

The second way to log PIC flight time that is pertinent to your question is to be the sole manipulator of the controls of an aircraft for which the pilot is rated, as you mention in your letter. Thus, a multiengine airplane flown under Part 135 by two pilots can have both pilots logging time as pilot in command when the appropriately rated second in command is manipulating the controls.

We stress, however, that here we are discussing logging of flight time for purposes of FAR 61.51, where you are keeping a record to show recent flight experience or to show that you meet the requirements for a higher rating. Your question does not say if the second pilot in your example is fully qualified as a PIC, or only as an SIC. This is important, because even though an SIC can log PIC time, that pilot has not qualified to serve as a PIC under Part 135.

An example of this difference is FAR 135.225(d), which raises IFR landing minimums for pilots in command of turbine powered airplanes flown under Part 135 who have not served at least 100 hours as PIC in that type of airplane. Served and logged are not the same in this context, and no matter how the SIC logs his time, he has not served as a PIC until he has completed the training and check rides necessary for certification as a Part 135 PIC.

Approval for single pilot operations with use of an operative approved autopilot system under FAR 135.105 gives an operator an additional option in the conduct of operations. It does not mandate that all future flights be conducted in that manner. The operator can elect to fly trips with two pilots, as is otherwise required for flight in IFR conditions under FAR 135.101, using the second in command instead of the autopilot.

Your second question asks if, under the circumstances given above, the SIC can log time as SIC when the designated pilot in command is flying the aircraft. The answer is yes, as long as the certificate holder is using the SIC as a crewmember instead of exercising the autopilot authorization. In other words, the certificate holder elects not to conduct an IFR flight using the single pilot with a functioning autopilot option, but rather conducts an IFR flight using two qualified pilots. The two pilots are then "required by the regulations under which the flight is conducted", FAR 61.51(c)(3), and the assumption is that the second pilot (SIC) will function as a required crewmember, and SIC time may validly be logged. However, if for some reason another qualified pilot "rides along" and does not function as a crewmember, then second in command time may not be validly logged.

This interpretation has been prepared by Arthur E. Jacobson, Staff Attorney, Operations Law Branch, Regulations and Enforcement Division; Richard C. Beitel, Manager. It has been coordinated with the Manager, Air Transportation Division, and the Manager, General Aviation and Commercial Division, Flight Standards Service.

We hope this satisfactorily answers your questions.

Sincerely,


Donald P. Byrne
Assistant Chief Counsel
Regulations and Enforcement Division
 
Guys, I read these threads all the time and have a real problem. How can anyone log PIC time in and aircraft requiring a PIC TYPE rating when one only has an SIC type?
Logging total time and SIC is perfectly legal. Your future employers (91, 135, 121) will look and be able to see right through this.
 
What if your flying cargo in a Baron?

135.101 states "no person may operate an aircraft CARRYING PASSENGERS under IFR unless there is a second in command in the aircraft.

Cargo has and will be the exception, even w/out an autopilot. Been there done that, got the t-shirt.
 
Guys, I read these threads all the time and have a real problem. How can anyone log PIC time in and aircraft requiring a PIC TYPE rating when one only has an SIC type?
Logging total time and SIC is perfectly legal. Your future employers (91, 135, 121) will look and be able to see right through this.

... and to add to this point these aren't PIC or SIC "type ratings" merely 135 competency letters for aircraft which do not require any addt'l certifications in the FAR91 world.
 
However, I will add this:

When I interviewed at a major several years ago, the application asked for the typical hour break-down. And if I recall, this carrier only wanted PIC time as the ASSIGNED PIC.

During the interview, the Dir. of Flt Ops asked me to open one of my logbooks to the page at which I took my first PIC check. He looked at those hours, then the last page and compared it to the number I put on the app. Of course it all matched up.

I only bring this up so folks might want to make a note in the even they fill out an app that only wants designated PIC time.

Now, to the person who keeps bringing up the TYPE issue. Yes, in order to log PIC (in the event you're not the designated PIC) in an aircraft requiring a type rating, yes, you need the type rating. That is not the case in the original posters twin cessna.

Ultra
 
Guess I'll put this out there and see what you all say, as I am not currently logging it but in this senerio what say you:

Typed (PIC) in plane, sits and flys left seat (swaps legs), but not designated PIC on release.
 
First, I hope to God you are not paying for this time in the right seat of an airplane that requires only one pilot even with passengers on board.............unless insurance requires it. On the empty legs you SHOULD log it as PIC time if you have a commericial multi instrument rating but keep good records of this small sliver of time in your career. Hopefully you will upgrade to PIC and all of this time will blend in anyway and by the time you are on your second or third logbook........no one will notice or care. I keep hearing about what the airlines consider PIC time but who the hell wants to go to an airline nowadays and whos to say that is going to be your next step????? You may want to go to a corporate or freight department and all they care about is you telling them you have 500 pic multi to fill their insurance requirement so they can fill a seat. Bottom line............you can legally log it PIC if you are flying the 91 legs in a Cessna 402 assuming you have your commercial multi. Every place you will apply to will give you the heads up on what they consider PIC..........some will allow it and some wont. The airlines especially the commuters are the ones you will most likely have the most explaining to do.
 
You can log it however you want. But if you are logging your SIC time as PIC in a 402 dont expect to be offered a job flying for anyone or any airline, especially if they ask to see your log book.
If the 135s ops specs call for an SIC, and you have a 135 SIC checkout then you can log SIC, if you do not have 135 PIC checkout(also need an ATP) do not even think about logging it. However as stated before you may log PIC on any of your 91 legs.
 
Last time I checked a 402 did not require a Type rating. If you are flying a 135 leg and are SIC qualified you are logging SIC. If you are a 91 leg you can log PIC. You have a mulit-engine rating that is all that is required to operate a 402 PIC.
Someone said it before...a future employer will see through you logging PIC as a qualified SIC in the aircraft. There is a difference between being PIC and being legal to log PIC. don't imagine it will take that long to move to the left seat of a 402.
 
You can legally log it as PIC but it wont count if airlines are asking for PIC as defined in Part 1.
 
correct..there's a difference between logging pic..and acting as pic...the SIC can log PIC if they are the sole manipulator of the aircraft, even with the assigned PIC...both are logging PIC
 
correct..there's a difference between logging pic..and acting as pic...the SIC can log PIC if they are the sole manipulator of the aircraft, even with the assigned PIC...both are logging PIC

that is correct.

I think what others are talking about pertaining to a type rating is this, the guy with the type rating logs PIC all the time. If the fo has no type then he can't log pic regardless if he's flying the plane.

If both arer typed then for a 135 only one can log time as pic because before a flight a PIC must be named and they remain PIC for that flight. If both are typed and the flight is 91, then the "FO" can log pic if he is flying the plane.

simple right?
 
that is correct.

I think what others are talking about pertaining to a type rating is this, the guy with the type rating logs PIC all the time. If the fo has no type then he can't log pic regardless if he's flying the plane.

If both arer typed then for a 135 only one can log time as pic because before a flight a PIC must be named and they remain PIC for that flight. If both are typed and the flight is 91, then the "FO" can log pic if he is flying the plane.

simple right?

It's simple, but not as you describe it. Logging PIC time has nothing to do with the regulation governing the flight, except that a ATP can log as PIC all command time requiring a ATP cetificate. If the co-pilot is rated to fly the airplane i/a/w Part 61 and is driving, he/she can also log PIC time.
 
It's simple, but not as you describe it. Logging PIC time has nothing to do with the regulation governing the flight, except that a ATP can log as PIC all command time requiring a ATP cetificate. If the co-pilot is rated to fly the airplane i/a/w Part 61 and is driving, he/she can also log PIC time.

Transpac is correct, as that person would be logging time as so-manipulator
 
It's simple, but not as you describe it. Logging PIC time has nothing to do with the regulation governing the flight, except that a ATP can log as PIC all command time requiring a ATP cetificate. If the co-pilot is rated to fly the airplane i/a/w Part 61 and is driving, he/she can also log PIC time.

thats exactly what i said.....

I was refering to an SIC with and without a type rating. An SIC who is rated can log PIC for the tme he "flying" the plane. I see now where i had a slight typo in my previous post.

The PIC that is named for the flight per the regulation logs THE WHOLE FLIGHT as PIC because he is responsible for the outcome. Regardless who is flying.

you can't log PIC without a type rating if your sole manipulator.....you log SIC time.
 
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