logging actual IFR time

[PAPA FOX!]

Can a VFR only private pilot flying solo log actual IFR time if he was, for instance, flying over water at night with 6 miles visibility in haze with absolutly no visual references??

 

[ackattacker]

Pretty sure the answer is no. To log actual IMC time you need to meet two condtions. You need to be flying soley by reference to instruments AND you need to be in actual IMC conditions. Actual IMC means weather below VFR requirements. If weather is below VFR requirements then you're not legal as a VFR pilot... so to log it would be admitting to flying illegally.

 

[paulsalem]

(g) Logging instrument flight time. (1) A person may log instrument time only for that flight time when the person operates the aircraft solely by reference to instruments under actual or simulated instrument flight conditions

There is no definition of "actual instrument" in Part 1 or Part 61.

So by the letter of the law, I say yes you can.

 

[ackattacker]

Far 1:

IFR conditions means weather conditions below the minimum for flight under visual flight rules.

 

[paulsalem]

You know the more I read the reg and the more I agree with ackattacker

 

[ackattacker]

I don't want to get into an argument about it. If you want to log it, go ahead. Then try to explain it on an interview. Let me know how it goes.

"See, the reg says "instrument flight conditions", which is not the same as "IFR conditions"....

 

[ackattacker]

Well, it appears I was wrong.

FAA Legl opinion, NOTE: FAR 61.51(c)(4) is now codified in 61.51(g), the concepts cited remain valid. the opinion has been edited for brevity:
"November 7 1984
Mr. Joseph P. Carr
Dear Mr. Carr:
This is in response to your letter asking questions about instrument flight time.
First, you ask for an interpretation of Section 61.51(c)(4) of the Federal Aviation Regulations (FAR) regarding the logging of instrument flight time. You ask whether, for instance, a flight over the ocean on a moonless night without a discernible horizon could be logged as actual instrument flight time.
Second, you ask for an interpretation of Section 61.57(e)(2) of the FAR, noting that Advisory Circular 61-65A, Certification: Pilots and Flight Instructors, seems to contain advice contrary to your understanding of the rule.
As you know, Section 61.51(c)(4) provides rules for the logging of instrument flight time which may be used to meet the requirements of a certificate or rating, or to meet the recent flight experience requirements of Part 61. That section provides in part, that a pilot may log as instrument flight time only that time during which he or she operates the aircraft solely by reference to instruments, under actual (instrument meteorological conditions (imc)) or simulated instrument flight conditions. "Simulated" instrument conditions occur when the pilot's vision outside of the aircraft is intentionally restricted, such as by a hood or goggles. "Actual" instrument flight conditions occur when some outside conditions make it necessary for the pilot to use the aircraft instruments in order to maintain adequate control over the aircraft. Typically, these conditions involve adverse weather conditions.
To answer your first question, actual instrument conditions may occur in the case you described a moonless night over the ocean with no discernible horizon, if use of the instruments is necessary to maintain adequate control over the aircraft. The determination as to whether flight by reference to instruments is necessary is somewhat subjective and based in part on the sound judgment of the pilot. Note that, under Section 61.51(b)(3), the pilot must log the conditions of the flight. The log should include the reasons for determining that the flight was under actual instrument conditions in case the pilot later would be called on to prove that the actual instrument flight time logged was legitimate.
[Answer to second question deleted due to not being pertinent to this discussion -- Doc]
Sincerely,
/s/
John H. Cassady
Assistant Chief counsel
Regulations and Enforcement Division"

 

[paulsalem]

Should have stuck to by guns.

Thanks ackattacker for posting this even though it went against your original stance.

 

[WMUSIGPI]

If the VFR only pilot survives the trip then yes. Legal and loggable.... but not very smart, just try asking JFK Jr. about it.

 

[ksu_aviator]

Log flight time that accurately depicts your experience. I personally don't log flight time unless I'm in IMC. I probably have logged less instrument time than some other pilots, but it is as an accurate representation of my experience and I have yet to have anyone tell me I have too little instrument time.