Lindz Four Departure

[HS125]

I haven't seen the APG procedure. (Anyone have a website?) IMHO, you should always try any alternate procedure in the airplane prior to betting your a$$ on it. For some of you it may be difficult - you don't get there all that often. If you have the opportunity (and the weather allows it) just coordinate with ATC and let them know what you want to do. The time to try and figure out that the procedure is telling you to do isn't immediately after shutting one down and you are up to your eyebrows in airplane. The ideal way to handle the situation is to have it standing at the ready in the #2 FMS. (Using a "pilot" SID.) Prior to departure brief you simply review the procedure for the PNF to bring it up for you should the need arise. It's very simple and straight forward.

'Sled

The APG weights and special departure procedures are provided by Airinc Direct through a subscription service to Airinc Direct. Most of the procedures that I have seen and used are simple enough and often follow the normal DP's for the given airport, making for an easy transition in the event of an engine failure.

Another thing to keep in mind when using a special engine out departure procedure; If you depart on the normal DP and subsequently have an engine failure after you are airborne, can you safely divert from the normal DP and get established on the escape procedure that you have base your takeoff weight on?

Try planning on using the 280 heading procedure out of KEGE so that you can carry the weight to get home, and then departing on the Gypsum DP. If you lose an engine after you are airborne on the Gypsum 215 heading, I'd bet my paycheck that you can't safely make a right turn to get to get established on the 280 heading without flying into the hill off of Rwy 25. And if you used the higher weights based on the 280 heading departure, you wont be garunteed terain clearance flying out on the Gypsum DP which requires a lower weight. Gotta use your head out there.

 

[Lead Sled]

...If you depart on the normal DP and subsequently have an engine failure after you are airborne, can you safely divert from the normal DP and get established on the escape procedure that you have base your takeoff weight on?...If you lose an engine after you are airborne on the Gypsum 215 heading, I'd bet my paycheck that you can't safely make a right turn to get to get established on the 280 heading without flying into the hill off of Rwy 25.

An alternate procedure wouldn't be much use or safe if that were to be the case. I recommend that you give the folks at APG a call and ask those questions directly to them. It won't mean anything if it's merely another discussion point on this thread.

'Sled

 

[HS125]

An alternate procedure wouldn't be much use or safe if that were to be the case. I recommend that you give the folks at APG a call and ask those questions directly to them. It won't mean anything if it's merely another discussion point on this thread.

'Sled

APG provides the runway analysis and the escape procedures that the weights are based upon. It is up to the operator to establish the SOP's on how to use the data and the procedures. The same applies for Jepp Ops-data. That is why I pointed out the dangers of blindly following what is essentially good information from APG (and Jepp Ops-Data).

If I was basing my takeoff weight on a special engine out departure that was drastically different from the DP that I could reasonably expect from ATC, (as in the 280 heading out of KEGE) I would probably request clearance from ATC to fly that procedure a head of time and fly that procedure to the en-route phase.

I've been asking other operators that use Airinc Direct and the Runway analysis information that they provide. Most of the operators admit that they don't understand what they are dealing with or how to use it.

 

[suen1843]

Using APG numbers for 25 at EGE, there is not a lot of difference in the max takeoff weight for 2 of the most favorable procedures. A Falcon 900B on a 20c degree day has a computed weight of 41631 using the Gypsum (same as APG DP1)and a weight of 42230 using the APG DP1. Using the Cottonwood FMS procedure (same as APG DP3)drops the max weight to 40488.
It looks like it would be better to take 600 pound penalty and use the Gypsum procedure if ATC would not cooperate with your flying the alternate procedure.
However, as shown below, the alternate DP requires an immediate turn to a 280 heading. If you started out on the Gypsum (heading 215), there is no way you can comply with the alternate procedure since you have already passed the point (immediate right turn) required in that procedure.


TAKEOFF WEIGHTS FOR RWY 25DP1 REQUIRE USE OF
THIS MODIFIED DEPARTURE PROCEDURE:

MAKE AN IMMEDIATE CLIMBING -RIGHT- TURN
TO HEADING 280 DEGREES.

UPON CROSSING THE SXW R-017 (N39-39.08 /
W106-58.52 FLYOVER), TURN -LEFT- TO
HEADING 215 DEGREES.

UPON CROSSING THE DBL VOR R-325 (N39-38.56
/ W107-01.74 FLYOVER), TURN -RIGHT- TO
INTERCEPT AND TRACK OUTBOUND ON THE DBL
R-336.(N39-47-52.76 / W106-59-37.04)

INTERCEPT THE RLG VOR R-235 INBOUND.
(N39-51-54.95 / W106-54-33.17). DIRECT TO
RLG VOR.(N40-00.15 / W106-26.54)

PROCEED ON COURSE

 

[HS125]

However, as shown below, the alternate DP requires an immediate turn to a 280 heading. If you started out on the Gypsum (heading 215), there is no way you can comply with the alternate procedure since you have already passed the point (immediate right turn) required in that procedure.

That is exactly the point that I was trying to make. You would be surprised by how many pilots that I have talked to that said that they would abandon the Gypsum and turn right to 280. Scary huh?

 

[Lead Sled]

That is exactly the point that I was trying to make. You would be surprised by how many pilots that I have talked to that said that they would abandon the Gypsum and turn right to 280. Scary huh?

It is scary - that's why I suggested that folks call and have a heart to heart with the guy who's actually putting the alternate procedure together for them. You'll come to a quick understanding of what it can and can not do for you. Another thing we (actually HMR) did was to, using M/S Paint, draw a depiction of the procedure overlaid on a Sectional chart. We carry it in the cockpit as well. That in and of itself shows in a very graphic nature what you're up against.

You have brought up the procedure for EGE. We don't frequent EGE, in fact, I can count on one hand the number of times that I've been to that airport in 40 years. We don't have an alternate procedure for it.

Don't get me wrong. We spend a lot of time in and out of Aspen - normally several times per month year around. We have very conservative standards when it comes to operating out of ASE - we've got to see the airport from over Red Table or we're not landing. For takeoff it's 3100 and 3.

'Sled

 

[stknrdr]

This is why most every safe light turbine operator leaving ASE uses a tech stop like GJT or APA on the outbound so they can depart as light as possible. I once heard in a discussion that given 4mi viz a guy might consider departing VFR, doing a circle to clean up, and then departing with adequate speed to meet a higher gradient such as Appch Climb limits. A lot of creative stuff out there, not necessarily all safe.
Hey, just remember there's nothing a checkbook can't fix. Slap a third hole (Falcon 50) on that bad boy and get-r-done.

 

[MauleSkinner]

So...you get an alternate DP for emergencies from Jepp or APG. Is there a revision notice or revision status that can be accessed to ensure that it's currently safe (i.e., they haven't put up a tower or hung powerlines across the valley, etc.)?

Thanks

David

 

[XR1]

During my last recurrent at FSI (last week), I was given a copy of the gouge that the performance guru came up with to assist the instructors. It's about a 35 page document and should be required reading for anyone flying around in turbine mult-engine aircraft. As soon as I get chance (I'm sitting in Costa Rica for 5 days...sounds exotic, but it aint all that), I'll download it and would be more than happy to fire off a copy.

Bill

 

[Rough67]

aspen pics

found this on google..

http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://www.mountainflying.com/images/100_ASE_small.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.mountainflying.com/airport3.htm&h=116&w=175&sz=5&tbnid=8GpDokTwCR39JM:&tbnh=62&tbnw=95&hl=en&start=197&prev=/images%3Fq%3Daspen%2Bairport%26start%3D180%26svnum%3D10%26hl%3Den%26lr%3D%26sa%3DN