Lindz Four Departure

[UGAflyer]

I'm working on a performance problem coming out of Aspen. As far as gradient:

"This SID requires the following take-off minimums: 3100-3 or 1000-2 with a minimum climb gradient of 460'/nm to 14000'."

I'm not gonna be able to make the 460/nm gradient because the problem is for summer, 25C. I'm not given clouds and vis, just temperature, and trying to find out what is max weight to make it out. My question is if I have 3100-3, do I just need to make the minimum climb gradient for any SID..which is 200'/nm or 3.3% ? If it's VFR do I still need to meet the minimum climb gradient to accept the SID?

 

[Lead Sled]

I'm working on a performance problem coming out of Aspen. As far as gradient:

"This SID requires the following take-off minimums: 3100-3 or 1000-2 with a minimum climb gradient of 460'/nm to 14000'."

I'm not gonna be able to make the 460/nm gradient because the problem is for summer, 25C. I'm not given clouds and vis, just temperature, and trying to find out what is max weight to make it out. My question is if I have 3100-3, do I just need to make the minimum climb gradient for any SID..which is 200'/nm or 3.3% ? If it's VFR do I still need to meet the minimum climb gradient to accept the SID?

Do a search on Aspen. We've had multiple discussions regarding this very topic. Bottom line, if you have a copy of the escape procedure it's not too limiting - as long as you can meet the climb gradient with all engines operating.

'Sled

 

[UGAflyer]

Do a search on Aspen. We've had multiple discussions regarding this very topic. Bottom line, if you have a copy of the escape procedure it's not too limiting - as long as you can meet the climb gradient with all engines operating.

'Sled

I searched Aspen but couldn't find anything addressing the climb gradient on the departure in VFR..obviously you'll see and avoid but for planning purposes do you have to meet the gradient for the SID?

Also, where do you get the escape procedure that you mention?

 

[Bandit60]

If you are in VMC, can you maintain the climb gradient with two engines? If you can than you can legally accept that sid. Led sled knows what he is talking about.

 

[Lead Sled]

If you are in VMC, can you maintain the climb gradient with two engines? If you can than you can legally accept that sid.

Contact Jeppesen Ops Planning for the chart. They work it up for your particular airplane. The climb gradient requirements are based on all engine operation. Period. The Under 135 you have to be able to maintain the required gradient with the loss of an engine OR have an alternate (escape) procedure available. There is no such requirement for 91, but common sense and the desire to be able to remain in the gene pool dictates that non-commercial operators operate to the same standards.
Sled

 

[UGAflyer]

Thanks for all your help.

 

[temcgrew]

Hmm, I was under the impression that the climb gradient is based on worste case scenerio. How many twin turbo-props or jets cannot maintain the climb gradient with all engines operating?

I was always told that if you accept the departure when you pick up your clearance, then VFR or not, you HAVE to be able to maintain the required climb gradient in the SID if you have an engine out.

Under visual rules, pilots may not concern themselves with climb gradients as long as obstacles can be visually circumnavigated; however, even without the presence of obstacles, the aircraft must still be able to meet or exceed jet aircraft certification climb performance. In other words, a two engine aircraft must be able to meet, with one engine inoperative, a minimum required gross gradient of 2.4% (3 engine aircraft 2.7% and 4 engine 3.0%). We will discuss gross versus net in a bit, but notice that this is the required gradient. Many manufacturers include a Max Weight Climb chart to determine if this most basic criteria can be met. If one is not available, then the aircraft's 2nd segment climb charts must be visited and the pilot must make the appropriate adjustments for gross versus net.

http://cavucompanies.com/CAVU/discuss.htm

 

[some_dude]

Reread what you posted... "This SID requires the following takeoff minimums: 3100-3 OR 1000-2 with..." So yes, if you have 3100-3 then legally you can take off with a 3.3% gradient.

The key issue here, and one that has been beaten to death on this website before, is do you need to do 460'/nm with all engines, or one engine inoperative?

The answer is that if you are 91, all engines. If you are 135, one engine inoperative.

Assuming that you are 91 (or you would have asked this on the charter or FAR sections), the next question is, "how do you know you can make the gradient with all engines?" Does your aircraft have an all-engine climb gradient chart?

Incidentally, my discussion above is all related to legality. I agree with Lead that in reality having an escape maneuver is wise.

I'm working on a performance problem coming out of Aspen. As far as gradient:

"This SID requires the following take-off minimums: 3100-3 or 1000-2 with a minimum climb gradient of 460'/nm to 14000'."

I'm not gonna be able to make the 460/nm gradient because the problem is for summer, 25C. I'm not given clouds and vis, just temperature, and trying to find out what is max weight to make it out. My question is if I have 3100-3, do I just need to make the minimum climb gradient for any SID..which is 200'/nm or 3.3% ? If it's VFR do I still need to meet the minimum climb gradient to accept the SID?

 

[HMR]

A couple recurrents ago at FSI, LeadSled and an aviation attorney who specializes in this stuff were both in our "performance" class. When it came to ASE departures and SID requirements the instructor got pummeled. They've been teaching it right ever since.

 

[Lead Sled]

If I happened to be an FAA civil servant type out on a witch hunt I wouldn't even bother with the guys departing. After all, how many jets out there can't manage a 1533 fpm climb at 14000' MSL? (Again - all engines operating.) I know that even on our worst days we're capable of doing nearly twice that. Yep, if I was looking to violate guys at Aspen, I'd simply ramp check the guys after landing and have them show me what their approach climb capability was.

'Sled