Light Twins

[ShawnC]

My company is thinking about buying a light twin to use on trips, particularly to the out of the way airports.

I was thinking something like a Baron. We want 6 seats, or 4 with descent cargo capacity. And range enough to go TPA to Atlanta with reserves.

I personally want something relatively easy enough to fly that I could train one or two of the employees that would go on these trips to land it if I am knocked out(think the AOPA pinch hitter program).

Price, thinking about $150k. But for us the best ROI would not having to be strip searched at the airport, and operating on our on schedule with our clients.

 

[LXApilot]

Light Twin

Definately the Piper Aztec....

You can't beat 144 gallons of fuel at 160 knots and a 2200 lbs useful load!

I'd recommend either E or F model...

PM me for more details!

 

[SDdriver]

I have to say, You don't see Barons at charter companies for nothing. WHy do you think Airnet flys a ton of them. Don't ever recall seeing an Aztec anywhere but at our flight school. It didn't last long there either. We had an F model there and some students were practiing single engine work during the summer with 4 of them on board, it wouldn't hold alt. Kinda weak motors aand 160 kts, you can get 20 more kts out of a baron. You could just go with a 210 for that matter and forget having to pay for the second motor and still go 160.

BARON all the way. Maybe 400 series cessna also.

SD

 

[flybub]

Depending on how much power you want, a Cessna 402 could probably get the job done. 300 HP per side is usually enough to get you there and still enough power to fly single engine and hold alt.

 

[Jet_Dreamer]

ce-310R- 5500 gross approx 1900 of useful load.

and the 310 is a cool looking airplane vs. the barons and aztecs

 

[Tooslow]

Baron 55 and 58's are the best light twins I have flown.

 

[labbats]

flown both

I've flown several aztecs and one baron. While my total time will indicate that I don't have tons of experience (or all of the types of airplanes I've flown, I'll fix that soon), but I can say that the baron is much better. Comfort, power, roomy cabin, and rudder trim add up to a win.

 

[cvsfly]

BE-58 for speed (dont't try for 6 people) unless you are real light on gas. Nice one hard to find for $150 k, training OK if have dual yoke, Beedch part a little expensive. PA-23 good payload, roomy , but with traditional seating (fwd face) as opposed to club. Good trainer. Possible at $150 k. Cess 310s good speed. Possible at $150k. Models with seats for 6 are really 4-5 with baggage room. Cess 400 series confortable cabin class, most with press. More cost per hour, more to buy. Turbos not a good trainer. If you are limited to $150k then your choices are going to limited.

 

[Rick1128]

Aztec

While the Aztec may not be the belle of the ball, it gets the job done. Easy to fly and relatively inexpensive to operate. The Lycomings are reliable. While it is not fast, it is a true 6 place aircraft. Carries a good load of ice. Have taught pinch hitter courses in the Aztec. Its big fat wing is very forgiving. Stick with an E or F model. The early F's had horns on the elevators, I suggest you avoid these aircraft. The aircraft is not sexy enough for most charter operators. A Senaca is another option, but its range with 6 seats is limited. It is also noiser.

It is my personal opinion that you want and need turbo chargers even at sealevel.

The 310s are not a real six place aircraft. Many operators take a seat out. And the Baron, the parts are overpriced.

As for 402s and Navajos. They are more difficult to fly and more expensive to operate. Also the Cessna 400 series have an expensive AD on them right now. This AD requires the removal of the wing for inspection. It is not cheap.

 

[WrightAvia]

AZTECS have rudder trim.

 

[Tooslow]

SO DO BARONS?

 

[WrightAvia]

Comfort, power, roomy cabin, and rudder trim add up to a win.

Not being mean, somebody posted this earlier and I just thought the rudder trim comment was a little off. Thought I would stand up for the Aztec. I don't have any Barron time so I can't really compare notes with you Barron flyers. Aztecs are Aztecs. I think the Barron probably compares more to the Cessna 310.

 

[Dragonbravo]

Well I haven't flown either the Aztec or Baron, so can't comment on them. But I think the 402 is probably the easist flying twin out there. The C models will go faster and carry more weight. But the other models, I think, are a better ride. The problem with the 310 is you have to climb over seats to get in.

 

[SDdriver]

You have to look at the whole picture. The Baron has a very nice cabin for paxs. THe back doors open so it is very easy to get in it for the paxs and they sit face to face. You can put 6 people in it and it will fly no problem, of course you can't bring a ton of gas, but that is a given. As far as ease of flying, it is one of the easiet I have ever flown. It will fly realy slow and handles really well at slow speeds. It has a nice range and it pretty quick, about 180kts.
I never liked the Aztec, it is a good plane for training, but other than that it is not worth flying charter or people in. As said above, you have to climb over seats to get in it, it is slow, 160kts, I also believe it is weak when it comes to performance. It is big and not very aerodynamic, I have never seen one perform well on one engine. I have lost an engine on a baron before and it flew just fine. THe barons parts are more expensive, but hey you get what you pay for right?

As far as 400 series Cessnas, well they are fine also, not bad airplanes, each model has its own quirks, but overall they are pretty good planes. Much better than the Aztec.

Here is a good way to judge, Go look at 50 different 135 charter operators that operate light twins, compare how many that fly Barons and 400 cessnas, as opposed to Aztecs. You may find 1 out of 50 that have an Aztec, but You will fine a TON of barons and cessnas. I wouldn't be surprised if you couldn't find one out 50 that flew the Aztec. That is that way for a reason. It is just not a good plane for that mission. Let the numbers speak for themselves.

SD

 

[katanabob]

During the first hour I spent in the left seat of a Baron, we had a catastrophic prop governor failure on the left engine. As much as that could have sucked, we were nearly at max gross weight and still able to climb at 400fpm. This blew me away; the C177RG I had been flying could barely eek out 500fpm, also with one engine running. (Have to compare the two with one engine running; the comparison with one engine secured is even more striking.. haha)
In comparison, during my checkouts in a Seneca and a C310, we secured engines and were left with performance that was more akin to a high-performance glider than a powered aircraft.
Others may beg to differ with my assertions, and perhaps my experiences are uncharacteristic. I have been impressed with Barons every time I've flown one, though. (That second engine just carries you to the crash site though, right?)

 

[Rick1128]

First of all not all Barons are 58s. The 55s will require you to climb over seats. The 58s and the 310Rs I checked out were all over his price range. If you compare 310Q's and Baron 55s, the Aztec performs as well or better. Yeah, it doesn't look as sexy as the others, but the Aztec has good insurance rates, stout engines and a comfortable cabin.

As for a 402, again you are looking at a high maintenance bill with that wing demate AD. Personally I would take a Navajo over the 402. But for what Shawn is looking for, I personally believe that the Aztec is the answer.

And I have flown not only the Baron 55/56/58, PA23-150/-160/-250, C310P/Q/R, but also the CE336/337/340/401/402A,B,C/414/421A,B,C, PA31-300, -310, -325, -350/PA-34-200, -210. So I am talking with a little bit of knowledge. Climbing over the wing is nothing campared with having your bags ransacked and being strip searched at the airport. Now Shawn if you are carrying women, the over the wing thing can be a problem.

The most important thing you need to look at is which aircraft will do the job you need it to do and you are most comfortable in and with.

The major reason that Barons are the most common charter aircraft is that the newest Aztec or 310 was made in the early 1980s. The Newest Baron I saw in the current Trade-A-Plane was made in 1996. A lot newer aircraft. Back when the Aztec and 310 were in production, the Aztec was the most common charter aircraft with the 310 a close second. The Barons were a distant third.

Good luck.

 

[crash-proof]

Have you considered a.....Skymaster?

Just a joke, people.

 

[Lrjtcaptain]

Ive logged about 600hours in the last 12 months in a Baron, and even though its a bit small at times when you have more then 4 people, you cant beat the 15-17gph at cruise per side and the 195kt TAS.

Im based in the midwest and have flown it as far as Baltimore, Charlotte, Naples Fl, Boise, Portland, Las Cruces etc..... Some destinations can take 4-5 hours to reach but never seems to be too big of a deal.

I also do trips ranging between 50-200nm on a regular basis going in and out of 2500ft strips with out breaking a sweat. Great airplane.

We fly a 1994 with the IO550 (300HP). If your company is gonna throw down 150k to buy one your gonna end up with an older 58 that might not get the 195kts cause I think most of the older ones had the IO520. But that is imaterial.

Anyways, good luck with the purchase. Any questions PM me.

 

[jetdriven]

A Baron is a fine aircraft but a 402C or a PA-31-350 might be a better bet. It all depends on your mission. If you never carry more than 4 or 5 passengers and never fly above 6,000 then stop reading right here.



PA-31-350 or C-402C. These aircraft have airstair doors, turbochargers, and are true cabin-class airplanes. I have a lot of hours in both and if you fly out west a NA BE-58 wont make the cut. Single engine service ceiling on a BE-58 is about 5-7000' for example. Dont count on climbing at 1000 FPM very long especially above 5 thousand. A NA light twin runs out of juice very quick. The 402C SE service ceiling is 11,000 and the navajo is about the same. Cruise speeds are all similar among all three types about 180-190 KTAS. The BE-58 and C-402C burn about 33 GPH while the Navajo is closer to 40. I think a C-402 has a much better range as it holds 197 usable while the Navajo is 187.

 

[Lrjtcaptain]

keep in mind flying a pa31 or a 400 series cessna you gonna be in the 200-300$ an hour range.

go with a baron and youll be down to anywhere between 150-200 due to operating costs are cheap. but you sacrifice room for performance and cost.

mark