Liberals Rejoice

[Typhoon1244]

Terrorism isn't a war that is going to go away soon and our enemies are many.

I agree. The real issue, though, is that the "War on Terror" creates more terrorists than it destroys. Every dead Osama leaves behind angry children, brothers, cousins, etc. What's the answer? Kill all of them? Genocide?

I've got a better idea: we can find oil elsewhere, and the IAF has proven on several occasions that they can hold their own against the best of them. It's time to sever ties with the Saudis and the Israelis (while reserving the right to monitor the region). Let's disentangle ourselves from the M.E., and I'll bet we'll have a lot fewer exploding airliners and subway trains. In the long run, our country would be better off.

 

[jarhead]

Typhoon 1244

You say you have a better idea......"We can find oil eleswhere" Much as I'd like to think that we as a nation could live without OPEC oil, I think your idea of finding it elsewhere is a little bit of wishful thinking. If we could just "find it elesewhere", why wouldn't that be being done now? The only small elswhere's under the control of the USA, are the ANWR and off shore drilling in the gulf, and off the coast of California (to my knowledge) And, if the environmentalists stopped fighting that, it would be a mere drop in the bucket. China coming on board as a developing country will only drive the price of crude up, as they compete for energy, with their 1 billion people. If you have an "elsewhere" in mind for oil, I'd sure like to know where that "elsewhere" is located.

 

[Typhoon1244]

Re: Typhoon 1244

Much as I'd like to think that we as a nation could live without OPEC oil, I think your idea of finding it elsewhere is a little bit of wishful thinking.

Let's not forget that putting a man on the moon was "wishful thinking" too. Americans can accomplish an awful lot when we put our minds to it. (Well, that used to be the case...I don't know if it still is.)

Look at Siberia...gobs of oil out there...it's a bitch to get to, but it's there. So, Russia has oil and no food. We have food and no oil.

And let's not forget that there are other sources of energy besides oil. As A-Squared pointed out elsewhere, it's going to take a lot of work to make some of them efficient...but again, consider men on the moon. It was very hard, but we did it.

Wouldn't it be nice to be able to tell the Saudi oil-sheiks to take a flying leap?

 

[jarhead]

I feel your pain, Typhoon. I wish with all my heart that all it would take is desire and effort. It would be nice if I still had faith in the 'tooth fairy' and St. Nick, but alas, no amount of wishing will make that happen.

You speak to the crude oil in Russia. Do you know that the Chinese are making contracts now for that oil? They will be our biggest competition for that global resource.

The US has the largest coal reserves in the world. Coal can be made to produce gas (Sasol) South Africa has made gasoline from coal oil for 20 years or so. The problem (if it is one) is that it is expensive in the process. Gas in Johannesburg 20 years ago was over $4.00 a gallon. Add inflation to that and it's much more now.

We (The USA) have the technology for lots of electrical energy. Nuclear power. The problem is political. No new nuclear plant has been licensed for over 20 years. That's a political problem.....not an economic problem. There are technical solutions, but political concerns thwart a lot of them.

 

[Typhoon1244]

I feel your pain, Typhoon. I wish with all my heart that all it would take is desire and effort. It would be nice if I still had faith in the 'tooth fairy' and St. Nick, but alas, no amount of wishing will make that happen.

Well, if you believe George W. can win the war on terror, why not throw in the Tooth Fairy too?

You speak to the crude oil in Russia. Do you know that the Chinese are making contracts now for that oil? They will be our biggest competition for that global resource.

I was not aware of that. Interesting.

The problem is political. There are technical solutions, but political concerns thwart a lot of them.

Agreed.

So...what? Should we just resign ourselves to the belief that our nation will be on OPEC's leash for the rest of its existence? Is that good enough for everybody? The alternatives are either too difficult, too political, or too expensive initially, so we just give up?

I'm so proud...

 

[jarhead]

Typhoon,

No, I do not believe GWB can win the war in Iraq, so my tooth fairy analogy still stands. However, the war on terror is a different ball game....we were attacked by OBL and his cadre. That war is just......the one in Iraq is not (IMO) We were mislead by our administration about WMD, and I hold GWB accountable for that lie, that has as of today claimed the #600 soldier's life. Thousands more are maimed for life.

That said, we as a nation, need to solve an increasing problem with energy. The political system will not solve that. Free, American enterprise is our best hope. Bush, Kerry, and Nader combined don't have the smarts to do anything but pander to the populace.

 

[enigma]

Re: Typhoon,

We were mislead by our administration about WMD, and I hold GWB accountable for that lie, that has as of today claimed the #600 soldier's life. Thousands more are maimed for life.

I'm not so sure that we were mislead by our administration as much as I am sure that the entire world was mislead. For a long time, the entire world, including the American Democratics, the UN, Europe, etc all believed that Iraq had WMD.
I do wish that President Bush had waited a little longer to send troops into harms way, but I can't sit here and let you imply that the presence of WMD was purely false. I don't know what happened to them, but they were there at one time. Hussein had not properly accounted for the WMD, and refused to show where they had been destroyed.

BTW, I stay pi$$ed off at the conservatives who attempt to justify the Iraq war by noting how much better off the Iraqi population is now that we removed Saddam. I don't consider the Iraqi people our responsibility.


regards,
enigma

 

[Typhoon1244]

Re: Typhoon,

No, I do not believe GWB can win the war in Iraq.... However, the war on terror is a different ball game...

How? Don't you agree that the memory of every deas terrorists breeds five more? How do you fight the anger inside the heads of a people?

Where will it end?

(Jesus, I'm starting to sound like a flower-child.)

Make no mistake: when I saw the Twin Towers fall, I wanted to be among those pickling bombs in the Middle East. I wanted to start dropping bombs in Yemen, head on up toward Syria, and not stop until we got to Pakistan. That would have satisfied my need for revenge...and fueled someone elses.

 

[Typhoon1244]

Re: Re: Typhoon,

...I stay pi$$ed off at the conservatives who attempt to justify the Iraq war by noting how much better off the Iraqi population is now that we removed Saddam. I don't consider the Iraqi people our responsibility.

Nor are they that much better off. Now they have different problems.

 

[jarhead]

Enigma....I agree with you

Typhoon.....I will not turn the other cheek. One dead terrorist is one fewer to try to kill me. I am not Ghandi....I am an old Marine.

 

[Typhoon1244]

...I will not turn the other cheek.

Nor would I want you to. I don't want to...but the result is that this "War on Terror" is going to last not until the next administration, but for many generations.

 

[jarhead]

Yeah, life's a b!tch. Nirvana will be reached when pigs fly. Until then, I guess we all have to get along the best we can, realize that there is injustice in the world, and know that we all just have our 'four score and seven' (if we're lucky) to live our lives, make our mark (as small or large as it may be) and then go on to the happy hunting ground. That's the way it has always been. You win some.....you lose some.

 

[bart]

It is a myth that:

the memory of every dead terrorists breeds five more?

You have to come at it in a three pronged approach.

1) Kill the terrorists

2) Kill the sponsoring governments

3) Help the population of recruits see they are the cause of their problems and to quit blaming others

It has been known for some time that terrorism is a way of making war by proxy. It is a low risk, cheap way to fight a war without direct involvement. The Arab countires have been using it for 30+ years to fight Israel and the US.

I keep saying and will keep saying that it will not be over until we TCOB in Syria, Saudi Arabia and Iran at a minimum. Destroying the political power of religious leaders should be central to our strategy there if we want a lasting victory.

The muslim religion has been subverted by radicals, and until the good muslims choose to do something about it, they are more or less screwed in the deal.

 

[Typhoon1244]

It is a myth that [the memory of every dead terrorists breeds five more].

I don't think any citizen of Madrid would agree with you.

You have to come at it in a three pronged approach.

1) Kill the terrorists

In progress.

2) Kill the sponsoring governments

Working on that.

3) Help the population of recruits see they are the cause of their problems and to quit blaming others.

This is where this plan falls apart. We (the U.S.) can't even do that with our own citizens. What makes you think we can accomplish this with other cultures?

...it will not be over until we TCOB in Syria, Saudi Arabia and Iran at a minimum.

TCOB?

The muslim religion has been subverted by radicals, and until the good muslims choose to do something about it, they are more or less screwed in the deal.

Amen...er, I mean right on, bro.

 

[Brett Hull]

TCOB?

Take Care of Bidness.

 

[Snakum]

Liberals usually can only support an argument with name calling, lying and their favorite: shouting down conflicting viewpoints.

Not on this board. Here, the converse is most decidely true.

Minh

 

[Herman Bloom]

Liberals usually can only support an argument with name calling, lying and their favorite: shouting down conflicting viewpoints.

Come on. Any person who believes this (or, for that matter, that the opposite is ALWAYS true) is not really thinking. It's just plain un-American.

Stop being such a partisan chump.