LEX Comair Crew on a nap/cdo/

[PCL_128]

That must be different than ours. On the ERJ, the command bars would show a turn on the ground if the hdg bug was significantly off.

When the TOGA buttons are pressed on the CRJ, the FD goes to TO/TO mode. That gives you 12 degrees of pitch and wings level on the FD until you select different modes on the FCP. TO/TO will normally be displayed until going to speed mode after gear up and heading/nav mode at 400 ft. The heading bug could be 90 degrees off and the FD will still show a wings level command on takeoff until hitting HDG mode at 400 ft.

 

[CatYaaak]

...should've seen it before the contract...

Anyway, I think you STILL misread the jist of my points. Try reading them like a book, not a personal attack on your disagreement with me. Perhaps if you spent some time at the regionals recently you'd see the point I and the other guys are making.

My apologies if I've misunderstood. I'll read them again.

I have nothing but respect for regional pilots who do their job day in and out with vigilance in the cockpit, always keeping their head above the underlying morass of drawbacks, difficulties, and traps that are inherent in the job which is just routine enough to where complacency can be a huge issue. It's not the tupe of flying or lifestyle I'd choose.

Vigilance is the bedrock of safety. My type of flying actually promotes vigilance through the fact at least half the places we go are unfamiliar and remote, sub-standard conditions, facilities, and disseminated info are the norm, and the feeling that sometimes it seems that half the people are trying to kill me through language barrier misunderstandings, ignorance, or sheer incompetence. Drifting into complacency in this mine-field atmosphere would probably require being shot in the head, and at least it's not insidious.

For some reason vigilance broke down here in both crewmembers. It's axiomatic that fatigue is detrimental to vigilance, decision-making, and can be insidious. This thread meandered into a general discussion of fatigue based the early departure after it was known that it wan't a scheduled stand-up. But nobody here knows yet as to whether fatigue played a role.

Not one person here accepts the notion that just because the crew was FAA-mandated "legal" on a 24 hour scheduling look-back fatigue couldn't have contributed. Neither does the NTSB.

I've made my position clear on "rolling-reserve", about any 121 company that considers it a viable scheduling scheme when only a facade of "legal rest" is maintained while the reality of the scheme actually works against being able to sleep during "rest", and my opinion of Union leaders who accept this facade by not going to the mat during negotiations to banish it from scheduled ops. But that's a theoretical discussion because although possible, we don't know yet if this crew was caught up in that scenario. The investigation will tell.

I've also offered my opinion that if given a schedule that is NOT a facade, but actually allows REAL rest to occur, it is a pilot's responsibility to use that time as it was intended while off-duty to stave off fatigue. If those conditions are met, the mere time of day for departure won't automatically induce it. This crew may have been given the time, and done exactly that.

So it's pure speculation to assume that they WERE fatigued and therefore more succeptible to distractions, changed/confused/not-charted taxiways due to construction, and the other things people have pointed out and obviously this crew had to contend with, just because it was an early flight.

Perhaps "distractions" didn't play the center-stage role at all. Maybe this crew was rested, and furthermore dealt with those distractions...taxiways, construction, darkness, whatever... competently and with attention to detail, but still unfortunately made the critical mistake. "WHY" is the question it played out as it did, and we shouldn't assume this crew was overwhelmed.

Since nothing's ruled out yet, for all anyone here knows they could have been too-relaxed. It wouldn't be the first time, and all of us especially as our experience grows are aware how this experience can be a double-edged sword. If the forthcoming realities when they're revealed include some that seem harsh to us as pilots, we HAVE to face them because nothing is harsher than the event itself.

The gist and point of what I'm saying is we shouldn't make a speculative fatigue (or any other) assumption based soley on the departure time. Because if investigation shows that fatigue issues weren't contributing, maintaining this assumption would form an innacurate causal premise that prevents focusing on and trying to find the ACTUAL reasons vigilance broke down in this particular case.

As pilots, don't we want the actual reasons in order to learn from this event and not repeat it, even if it means not being able to whip our favorite gripes? To do less would be a disservice to our profession, to the ones who perished, and our profession.

 

[pianoman]

I see. That makes sense. Our TOGA buttons defaults the FD to pitch up (different degrees based on flap setting) and ROL (roll) mode. Our company's procedure is to select HDG mode after pushing the TOGA buttons before departure. I suppose if we didn't, our FD would behave the same way you're describing.

 

[Publishers]

That is what I was asking. I believe that it depends on the various airlines procedures. Some people like to set the heading for the departure heading regardless of the runway heading. When you use the TO mode, they usually are showing straight and level regardless of heading selection.
I am not familiar with Comair or the aircraft, but there should have been some clues if they set the heading bug. They did notice the lights were not on. They were not totally unfamiliar with the airport and the airport was not that complicated. We can know a bunch of things but not what that guy was thinking when he taxied out to the wrong place.

 

[imacdog]

They were not totally unfamiliar with the airport and the airport was not that complicated.

Actually the north end of LEX is a little tricky, especially factoring in an inaccurate 10-9, a closed taxiway for construction, night conditions, and lighting systems out of service. Not saying that the pilots shouldn't have noticed the clues that they were not on the proper runway, but there was more involved than just making the wrong turn. Don't forget, other aircraft have made the same mistake in LEX, including another airliner some years ago.

 

[WSurf]

When the TOGA buttons are pressed on the CRJ, the FD goes to TO/TO mode. That gives you 12 degrees of pitch and wings level on the FD until you select different modes on the FCP. TO/TO will normally be displayed until going to speed mode after gear up and heading/nav mode at 400 ft. The heading bug could be 90 degrees off and the FD will still show a wings level command on takeoff until hitting HDG mode at 400 ft.

Don't know how different the FD is on the Dash compared to the CRJ, but on the ground we hit the GoAround button, it gives you a straight out with the same 12 degrees pitch. After hitting the ToGo button we hit ALT and HDG select and it match the heading bug........ I think that would have helped them.... But like I said, don't know much about the CRJ's FlightDirector or Comair's SOP's..

 

[Lear70]

Don't know how different the FD is on the Dash compared to the CRJ, but on the ground we hit the GoAround button, it gives you a straight out with the same 12 degrees pitch. After hitting the ToGo button we hit ALT and HDG select and it match the heading bug........ I think that would have helped them.... But like I said, don't know much about the CRJ's FlightDirector or Comair's SOP's..

What do you follow for pitch and roll guidance if you lose an engine?

The Flight Director on the CRJ is set to give you the proper pitch if you bag one so that you can follow it, rather than having it distract you by pitching further up, lower down, or commanding a turn you don't want to do when you want to fly straight out to 1,000' (or higher if non-standard) then clean up.

At many airports, the engine out heading is different than BOTH runway heading AND the normal tower-assigned departure heading, just to further complicat things. Which one are you going to pre-set at takeoff?

THAT'S why the TOGA switches give you that pitch and wings level command. Selecting something else as your company does would skew the flight director a different way than you'd really want it to go if you lost an engine which is, with no obstacles, straight ahead to clean-up altitude before makine a turn.

 

[WSurf]

No the Dash gives you proper pitch! Its just that when we hit HDG select is gives us the correct runway heading! The PF sets it to Runway Heading and the PNF sets his to the Tower Assigned or SID departure....

 

[Lear70]

No the Dash gives you proper pitch! Its just that when we hit HDG select is gives us the correct runway heading! The PF sets it to Runway Heading and the PNF sets his to the Tower Assigned or SID departure....

Oh, I gotcha.

The CRJ doesn't have independent heading bugs. Both are slaved together and set by the FCP.

 

[MACHTRANSDUCER]

To Mode

Not In Comair's Policy To Use Takeoff Mode, Although, 'my Friends Do!'