Let's use 400K piano pushers as an example.

[redflyer65]

The threats were nothing more than a negotiating tactic. How would you know how I voted anyway?

I don't really care how you voted. The results were overwhelming, and now it's time to move on.


Or not, your choice.

 

[madjack]

"My problem is with GK/SWAPA conspiring to deny us our date with an arbitrator thru the use of threats and ultimatums."

Ok, so you wanted arbitration, why? I am guessing ALPA advised that you would keep seats and more seniority if you went to arbitration. Why not ask Mr Kelly why he just didn't punt the whole process to a neutral arbitrator?

 

[Clyde Frog]

"
Ok, so you wanted arbitration, why? I am guessing ALPA advised that you would keep seats and more seniority if you went to arbitration.

ALPA was very noncommittal regarding expectations other than to use past arbitrations as possible scenarios. None of which included a 20 yr capt losing his seat to an 8-9 yr FO.

 

[redflyer65]

Deleted..

 

[SIG600]

Animal Farm anyone? If you like to fly this is still an OK job that puts you in the upper 10% of all wage earners in the US

Oh, well then. How about we all just accept the status quo and quit trying to further the profession? Why don't you go find a quiet corner to retire in and stop trying to undercut, everyone else and stand on the bar? Rhetorical question, you've accepted such low wages for a career you can't retire.

 

[madjack]

"None of which included a 20 yr capt losing his seat to an 8-9 yr FO"

You left out the fact he will upgrade in 2015 and make more money flying airplanes than he ever imagined...he will be in the top 20% percent of a seven thousand pilot list, holding any base in our system, with weekends off, and picking up when he wants...yeah they don't talk about that scenario much do they? Why, because the career windfall that those senior FAT pilots will receive is unprecedented...your twisted entitled view is so out to lunch that if it wasn't so pathetic it would be laughable...your CPs barely make SWA FO pay....many of our FOs make more $$...

 

[maxblast72]

Four neutral NMB arbitrators opined during Q2 2012 that the merger of Southwest Airlines and AirTran Airways was not a merger of equals. I am not sure how that guarantees that the AirTran pilots worst case in arbitration would have been DOH.

The ALPA lawyers wanted the AirTran pilots to vote on SIA #1 after being educated on how the MC arrived at SIA #1. The ATL LEC Chair intentionally misled the pilot group prior to their Aug 18th no vote which allowed the "no" crowd to gain momentum. Once the truth surfaced after the MEC shootdown, the ATL pilots recalled the ATL LEC Chair (as well as the other 2 ATL MEC reps who voted no).

 

[Clyde Frog]

Is any of that guaranteed? No, it isn't. I'll say this though, if SW could somehow guarantee current compensation for the remainder of my career, then I'd be willing to discuss trading some seniority for it. Obviously, that's impossible. Contracts have a 100% chance of changing. Seniority, not so much.

make more money flying airplanes than he ever imagined...he will be in the top 20% percent of a seven thousand pilot list, holding any base in our system, with weekends off, and picking up when he wants

Yeah, he'll go from $186/hr to $216/hr. It's more, but it sure as hell isn't a life changing amount of money. Lets not over exaggerate here. BTW he already holds weekends, whatever base he wants and picks up all the premium pay he wants.

The only entitlement attitude I see is that SW seems to feel "entitled" to AT seniority.

 

[PCL_128]

The ALPA lawyers wanted the AirTran pilots to vote on SIA #1 after being educated on how the MC arrived at SIA #1.

That's a lie and you know it.

 

[Just thinking]

'You left out the fact he will upgrade in 2015'...................

Your flattish growth will ensure that those uber senior former FAT Captains will be in the right seat for several years. They will have upgraded over 800 RSW FO's into those seats this year and next. They do not have the delivery schedule to warrant those number of upgrades. They do not have the number of retirements to warrant those numbers of upgrades. It is a seat steal that was orchestrated by GK and SWAPA. Of course they will be on reserve for the next 5-8 years at a minimum. Your most junior pilot on the RSW list (as of 9/26/2010) now has how many pilots beneath them from the FAT side of the list?

"You guys refuse to accept that pilots could get the air tran job with a lot less time and effort"...............

You make it sound like every RSW pilot is God's gift to aviation. You seem to forget that everybody out there knows someone at SW that is a really great guy. They also know someone who is a complete tool and they are totally dumbfounded as to how in the world that person ever got hired at SW.
Was this your interview prep for SW?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-DIETlxquzY

 

[-9Capt]

That's a lie and you know it.

I can't imagine anyone believing a thing he says.

 

[FlyinGuy]

So lets just pretend that everything you are saying is true. All the sneeky underhanded dealings between SWA pilots, SWAPA, and GK would not garner a negotiated deal without the cooperation of ALPA and AT pilots. At the end of the day, your MEC turned down the first deal and the pilots voted in the second. If you wanted arby, all you had to do was say no to deal number two and run out the clock.

Sounds like AT ALPA was crumbling during the process. In my opinion, SWAPA would have suffered the same fracturing if you guys would have let the first dead go out for a vote.

I think this whole thing stinks for a lot of people on both sides. Hopefully, growth will come and raise the tide for all our boats. Cheers...

 

[Just thinking]

"So lets just pretend that everything you are saying is true."....................

Pretend? When was the last time that SWA upgraded 800 pilots in two years?
It is not a figment of my imagination. It is factual information.

Our pathetic union leadership and the ineptness of the MC had paved the way for GK to manipulate the process. GK is the one who interjected himself. He is the one that came to the pilot groups with SL9 complete in hand and caught the MC off guard. They were played like the idiots that they are and the pilot group from Airtran suffered. They flailed around and the crappy offer was turned down (in a cowardly manner by LH) and GK came back with the "threats" and then SL10. He demanded that it go out to a vote. The face book crew bolstered his position. It was not a negotiated deal... it was a dictated deal....

 

[madjack]

$186 vs 216, I'd call that a raise, and all for being bought, that is a life improvement to that individual...to say it is not well I don't know what the hell.ur talking about...get a grip, u got bought by a better company and your greedy union wonks screwed you out of a chance to vote ur future and the second deal, though it netted some seniority, saved the company millions and cost the AAI pilots a bundle...

 

[SWA Bubba]

"So lets just pretend that everything you are saying is true."....................

Pretend? When was the last time that SWA upgraded 800 pilots in two years?
It is not a figment of my imagination. It is factual information.

Our pathetic union leadership and the ineptness of the MC had paved the way for GK to manipulate the process. GK is the one who interjected himself. He is the one that came to the pilot groups with SL9 complete in hand and caught the MC off guard.They were played like the idiots that they are and the pilot group from Airtran suffered. They flailed around and the crappy offer was turned down (in a cowardly manner by LH) and GK came back with the "threats" and then SL10. He demanded that it go out to a vote. The face book crew bolstered his position. It was not a negotiated deal... it was a dictated deal....

You know, when -I- said this, Clyde Frog about crapped on himself, hurrying to insist that it was really a secret, SWAPA-created deal to screw the AirTran guys, and that GK only went along with it because he's in our pocket or something. I wish you guys who like to bitch would come up with a consensus on what you're actually bitching about, so that we can have a consistent argument.

Bubba

 

[redflyer65]

'You left out the fact he will upgrade in 2015'...................

Your flattish growth will ensure that those uber senior former FAT Captains will be in the right seat for several years. They will have upgraded over 800 RSW FO's into those seats this year and next. They do not have the delivery schedule to warrant those number of upgrades. They do not have the number of retirements to warrant those numbers of upgrades. It is a seat steal that was orchestrated by GK and SWAPA. Of course they will be on reserve for the next 5-8 years at a minimum. Your most junior pilot on the RSW list (as of 9/26/2010) now has how many pilots beneath them from the FAT side of the list?

"You guys refuse to accept that pilots could get the air tran job with a lot less time and effort"...............

You make it sound like every RSW pilot is God's gift to aviation. You seem to forget that everybody out there knows someone at SW that is a really great guy. They also know someone who is a complete tool and they are totally dumbfounded as to how in the world that person ever got hired at SW.
Was this your interview prep for SW?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-DIETlxquzY

More like $152 vs $216 Madjack. Remember the payrates when Southwest stepped in. I do.

JT,

SW pilots don't think they are God's gift to aviation......but they do know how hard it was to get a job here. It was extremely difficult. The acceptance rate was below 20% for all those that interviewed. I suspect there are plenty of AirTran pilots that know this because they probably tried multiple times to get hired here.

These are just simple facts that you are trying to dismiss.

Here's the other part of the equation...

Let me start by saying I have friends at AirTran that are great people and great pilots and I look forward to them being on this side of the fence.

But just like you know people in the industry (SW included), I know specific cases of AirTran pilots that had been FIRED at other 121 carriers and AirTran said 'come on down, we'll interview you'...then subsequently hired them. That was some of the hiring practices you had on your side. Honestly, do think Southwest would have ever called them for an interview? If you said yes, then you truly are delusional. The SW interviewees didn't have to be perfect, but they wouldn't have even gotten the call if they were terminated from another carrier. Add to that, some hired at AirTran without the time that was required at SW and it's not similar at all.

Again, most guys at AirTran are great and I look forward to working together. But to come on here and act like it was equally difficult to get a job at SW vs AAI is crazy. As Max said, it would have never been seen as a merger of equals in the eye of the Arbiters either.

 

[madjack]

"The ALPA lawyers wanted the AirTran pilots to vote on SIA #1 after being educated on how the MC arrived at SIA #1. The ATL LEC Chair intentionally misled the pilot group prior to their Aug 18th no vote which allowed the "no" crowd to gain momentum. Once the truth surfaced after the MEC shootdown, the ATL pilots recalled the ATL LEC Chair (as well as the other 2 ATL MEC reps who voted no)."

Get it...from your own union peeps...greed and a sense of entitlement by a few cost your pilot group millions, that is criminal-level failure to represent....blaming GK and SWAPA is easier than acknowledging the truth: faced with overwhelming evidence that the jobs were never equal and that this was an acq vs merger, a few overzealous (that is as nice a word as you can use) union officials played russian roulette with your career and it cost you personally, hundreds of thousands of dollars...peddle your bull********************e somewhere else...

 

[FlyinGuy]

Just, I was mostly referring to Frog in my post. My apologies for not making that clear. That being said, what I said is still true. Your group had the power to go to arbitration if you wanted to. You can blame everyone you want to, but the Process Agmt was in place and it did not change the timeline.