Let's use 400K piano pushers as an example.

[Nindiri]

Meh. I'm like some of the others. I show up, do my job and only my job, try to be friendly, and go home. Outside of the occasional chuckle when some gate agent or other employee tries to lecture me on having a warrior spirit, I avoid thinking too much about the merger.

In their defense, most of the SWA guys have been quite friendly, and several have showed me some excellent ways of working the system for more money.

 

[redflyer65]

Clyde, think what you want. Trust me, many of my SWA brothers and sisters feel we were screwed with this abomination of a merger just as much as you AT folks.

Lets see, I'm further from upgrade, lost domicile bidding power (since all transitions are FOs until 2015) lost vacation bidding power, and received no pay raise or payout to lessen the sting. If we were conspiring with the GO to screw you I would hope we would have done a better job then scewing the bottom half(or more) of the SWA list.

ATrannies do not have exclusivity on the suck factor, but you got a long list of positives to make the sting less. I just hope neither side whines too much once we're all together because that is not productive and we all got stuff we can complain about.

Bingo.

What did the SW guys get out of the deal? Upgrade within the same week (except for the senior FOs)...so nothing there. No equity stake. No increase in salary or any benefit for that matter. I don't know many SW pilots that think this was a good deal for us. I agree with Bubba. I think the CA seats should have fallen where your seniority holds. Nothing more, nothing less. Gary didn't ask me.

You guys are really looking at black helicopters if you think SWAPA had that much power in how this went down. The did have some 'range' of what they hope to get, but in the end...the whole deal (including the list) was orchestrated by Gary.

The first deal with all the C&R's was put together by both Merger Teams. Then Gary signed off with the money. ie, paying the Airtran guys at SWAPA rates immediately.

When the MEC choked on the deal, Gary took over with what he decided would be the next deal. If you think SWAPA put it together then your an fool. Gary plainly took plenty off the table for the Airtran guys. That's exactly what most of us said would happen. Make your best deal the FIRST time. The MEC boned it up completely for all the Airtran guys. The worst move I've ever seen by ALPA. Similiar to the TWA debacle when they wanted AMR pilots back in the fold and offered the TWA guys up as a sacrifice at the alter.

You guys can be angry and resentful for life here, but I don't think you'll find much sympathy if you want to start talking about it. It's a great company with great employees. Keep an open mind, and if you can put it behind you, it will be awesome. Want to stay mired down in the could of/would have, and you'll be miserable for years. Your choice.

 

[Clyde Frog]

Some of you guys are absolutely living in a fantasy world. I remember a whole bunch of you, here on this very website, warning us to "be reasonable" in our seniority expectations because uncle Gary will put us on the street if we force his hand. Obviously the boss was talking to SWAPA and the plan was laid out early on. To say otherwise defies logic and sound reasoning.

 

[Clyde Frog]

Bingo.

What did the SW guys get out of the deal? Upgrade within the same week (except for the senior FOs)...so nothing there.

Nothing there? Are you actually saying those words?

Those "senior FOs" will occupy every 737 captain seat at AirTran at the time that the merger was announced...yeah, that's nothing, you're right...sheesh.

You guys are really looking at black helicopters if you think SWAPA had that much power in how this went down.

It's not a matter of SWAPA having "power". They likely had something mgt wanted, being in section 6 and all..

Now I get to come over and join the big leagues and be a real major airline pilot..yipdee frickin' doo!

 

[redflyer65]

We were speaking on our own behalf and the history of how hardcore the GO can negotiate these things. Tie that in with Gary's public comments of wanting a negotiated agreement ASAP....and you have exactly what we where saying. We just put two and two together...nothing complicated. SWAPA kept us mostly in the dark Frog (to my dismay). I'm sorry those facts get in the way of your conspiracy theory.

There were absolutely no 'SWAPA talking points'. If there were, I'd be honest enough to admit it right here, but there wasn't any such thing.

 

[redflyer65]

Nothing there? Are you actually saying those words?

Those "senior FOs" will occupy every 737 captain seat at AirTran at the time that the merger was announced...yeah, that's nothing, you're right...sheesh.

Frog,

Re-read what I posted. I don't believe any seats should have been 'taken'. I believe the CA seats should have fallen on the merits of the seniority list. Nothing more, nothing less. That part we agree on.

The rest, I'm talking about me personally. I didn't get squat out of this deal. NADA. I didn't double my salary. I didn't get a more stable company. I didn't get to bring my longevity to a carrier that I didn't even work for. I understand what you lost....and what you gained. It's over.

 

[Clyde Frog]

I didn't get a more stable company. I didn't get to bring my longevity to a carrier that I didn't even work for. I understand what you lost....and what you gained. It's over.

I sure wish you would've had the opportunity to plead your case to an arbitrator. Funny how we get all the gains yet your side played dirty pool to keep this out of arbitration. That makes sense.

You got a seniority bump (albeit a small one) as a result of our great seniority loss. It's math, you did, you all did.

As far as what I got...can you guarantee any of that? My new seniority is guaranteed. Pan Am was stable at one time, so was Eastern, they were also the highest paying too. So was TWA. No guarantees going forward, except for my new seniority.

DRC is ongoing so it's not totally over. Not holding my breath, but it's not over.

 

[PCL_128]

Are we still arguing about this? We got screwed because our group is filled with a bunch of cowards. Blame them (or yourself, as the case may be), and move on.

 

[Clyde Frog]

We'll be talking about this for the next 30 years or until the last bit of sand is rinsed from my vagina.

 

[waveflyer]

.

But it wasn't up to us. It was a business decision undertaken by management, and we had absolutely no say. Because we absolutely would have said no. We also can't change it. So we have to live with the results, and make the best of what the future holds.

Bubba

No to rehash history or start a new fight, but you (the pilots)had a say in the intergration and you and your group chose to take as much from us as you could You used management to do your bidding. There was even a proposal to put our stapled guys behind your poolies. Next to AA's stapling of TWA it's the most lopsided intergration in the history of airline mergers. I'm living with it just like the TWA guys did, you won't hear me say anything about it. When you tell me how lucky I am I'll just nod and agree with you, while thinking something else. It's over, we got what we got, but for you to say you had no say in the intergration is completely false. To the victor go the spoils, and you won.[/QUOTE]

And the junior SWA FO's think you're also full of sh/t

I hope we learned that the squeaky wheel gets the grease-

Sorry, but air tran seniority wasn't close to equal - you got a GREAT deal compared to junior SWA FOs

 

[waveflyer]

I sure wish you would've had the opportunity to plead your case to an arbitrator. Funny how we get all the gains yet your side played dirty pool to keep this out of arbitration. That makes sense.

You got a seniority bump (albeit a small one) as a result of our great seniority loss. It's math, you did, you all did.

As far as what I got...can you guarantee any of that? My new seniority is guaranteed. Pan Am was stable at one time, so was Eastern, they were also the highest paying too. So was TWA. No guarantees going forward, except for my new seniority.

DRC is ongoing so it's not totally over. Not holding my breath, but it's not over.

So full of it-
You guys got Herb and Colleen to smack you down.

Do you really think that those two do SWAPA's bidding. They are world renowned for doing the right thing by their employees and you got smacked down by THEM! And still you think you are the right ones? You were playing games and delaying the process, poisoning the well as much as you could- trying to drive it to arbitration regardless of the financial consequences if all employees did that, regardless of GK's wishes- and you found out that the air tran purchase becomes a LOT less profitable with a pilot union from the purchased carrier trying to use our culture against SWA.
Get over yourself- this integration wasn't a win for SWA employees- none of us are in a better spot over this-

And look at our own performance since the purchase- morale is down- performance is down- few care as much as they did before the purchase-
And that's on the air tran purchase-
So go ahead- keep bitching-
Maybe one day you'll help make this place as average to sh/tty a place to work as air tran once was-
All because you felt entitled to show up at SWA on day one with all the rewards as if you'd been at SWA all along. Instant gratification. No work. No coming in humble and doing the job- no profits first- you wanted our contract and our seniority immediately and would work against SWA if you didn't.
I don't get it. As a businessman who's also a democrat- it's the part that conflicts me about unions. I cash my check twice a month- but some of you flat out shouldn't be here.

 

[PCL_128]

So full of it-
You guys got Herb and Colleen to smack you down.

Do you really think that those two do SWAPA's bidding. They are world renowned for doing the right thing by their employees and you got smacked down by THEM! And still you think you are the right ones? You were playing games and delaying the process, poisoning the well as much as you could- trying to drive it to arbitration regardless of the financial consequences if all employees did that, regardless of GK's wishes- and you found out that the air tran purchase becomes a LOT less profitable with a pilot union from the purchased carrier trying to use our culture against SWA.
Get over yourself- this integration wasn't a win for SWA employees- none of us are in a better spot over this-

And look at our own performance since the purchase- morale is down- performance is down- few care as much as they did before the purchase-
And that's on the air tran purchase-
So go ahead- keep bitching-
Maybe one day you'll help make this place as average to sh/tty a place to work as air tran once was-
Entitled greedy punks

Wave, the only one poisoning the well is you.

 

[waveflyer]

Please

 

[Clyde Frog]

Get over yourself- this integration wasn't a win for SWA employees- none of us are in a better spot over this-

You're all more senior and 850 of you are captains as a result. ALL of you are in a "better spot".

 

[slaquer5]

Some of you guys are absolutely living in a fantasy world. I remember a whole bunch of you, here on this very website, warning us to "be reasonable" in our seniority expectations because uncle Gary will put us on the street if we force his hand. Obviously the boss was talking to SWAPA and the plan was laid out early on. To say otherwise defies logic and sound reasoning.

Or maybe the CEO. Did not want to have another USair/AW on his hands .





It's his airline, and he does not run it like other airline CEOs run there airline .


Both sides feel they got a raw deal . Why is so hard for you to see that there are some very upset SWA pilots ?

 

[Clyde Frog]

How many time can you people make the same, tired, non-sense arguments?

Or maybe the CEO. Did not want to have another USair/AW on his hands .

It was impossible to have another USAir/AW. They had a totally different set of circumstances requiring a JCBA. Not even remotely similar. This argument, like many others proposed by SWAPA, just doesn't hold water.

Both sides feel they got a raw deal . Why is so hard for you to see that there are some very upset SWA pilots ?

Because they have nothing to be upset about. They all gained seniority at our expense, got a new domicile out of the deal and "captured" all 850 AirTran captain seats. They'll all likely see a higher profit sharing check as well. Only a top to bottom staple would have appeased them. Please excuse my lack of sympathy...Boo friggin' hoo for the poor junior SW FO's. AirTran FO's had career expectations as well you know.

 

[freightdogfred]

My point was not that it wasn't a good business decision, but rather that it wasn't a good pilot decision. I recognize the difference. Clearly you must as well, as much bitching about it that everyone (including you) does. You're just trying to be contrary to anything someone from Southwest says.

And as far as what the company paid for yours, you're comparing apples to oranges. Issuing stock costs money. Acquiring a company with money in the bank, but lots of liabilities does NOT count as "netting that amount of money." It cost substantially more than "$250 million" to acquire AirTran.

Southwest pilots are not questioning GK's business decision in this case, but rather than we'd rather he spent all that money (and the subsequently-acquired obligations) to grow organically. That way there wouldn't have been all the pain for the employee groups, including yours. Clear now, or do you want to nitpick something else?

Bubba

A good business decision will always be a good pilot decision, in the long run. That part of it even you should be able to understand. If you don't understand the obvious advantadges of issuing stock vs laying cold hard cash I can't help you. I'm sorry that SWAPA didn't deliver on the expectation to staple all of our group, it must be very painful for the first year FO's. You, and the rest of the SWAPA posters here who feel our group got a "good deal" is the only thing I post "contrary" opinions about. Outside of your pilot group your version of the good deal is not viewed in the same light by anyone.

 

[redflyer65]

How many time can you people make the same, tired, non-sense arguments?

Tired arguments?

Are you kidding?

What did you want Clyde? DOH/Relative Seniority AND to double your salary at a more stable company? Keep ATL fenced for you? 20 years long enough?

What did you, as a pilot group, bring to the table? I'm not talking about the company assets that Gary bought, but the pilot group.

What exactly did you think you were entitled too?

What did I get? Maybe a 2% global seniority bump that really doesn't amount to anything in my base. No extra pay for me. No stock or equity stake in this deal. I won't upgrade ONE day earlier because of this mess. So you tell me exactly what I received. I sure didn't get a 40-100% salary increase like some. Talk about feeling entitled to everything, your the poster child for that kind of thinking.

Your union screwed you from the first deal. The second deal came right from Gary. No one else. SWAPA had no power in this agreement. No inside information. Think SWAPA knew ahead of time the 717 was going away? Nope. They actually sent the Training Committee members off to ATL to get their 717 type. Think SWAPA would have done that if they would have known? Your conspiracy theory looks like Swiss Cheese Clyde. Sorry.

 

[Clyde Frog]

Tired arguments?



What did you want Clyde? DOH/Relative Seniority AND to double your salary at a more stable company? Keep ATL fenced for you? 20 years long enough?

That was a decision for an arbitrator to make. Both sides agreed to that process.

You and I will never agree on what's fair so I'm not even going to debate it with you. Your side played dirty pool and won. Congratulations, you cheated AirTran out of due process, you're #1.

 

[HowardBorden]

That was a decision for an arbitrator to make. Both sides agreed to that process.

Directly from the process agreement:

WHEREAS, Southwest Airlines Pilots Association (?SWAPA?), the Air Line Pilots Association (?ALPA?), Southwest and AirTran desire to utilize an alternative process as set forth in this Agreement for the creation of an Integrated Master Seniority List

 

[Clyde Frog]

Your union screwed you from the first deal. The second deal came right from Gary. No one else. SWAPA had no power in this agreement. No inside information. Think SWAPA knew ahead of time the 717 was going away? Nope. They actually sent the Training Committee members off to ATL to get their 717 type. Think SWAPA would have done that if they would have known? Your conspiracy theory looks like Swiss Cheese Clyde. Sorry.

The first deal was rejected because it was an insulting offer. The second deal was accepted (by a bunch of weak individuals) because Gary and Co. made a bunch of scary threats...not long after SWAPA rallied around HQ in his support. Everyone who isn't a SW pilot seems to know how this thing went down.

Maybe the training dept feedback has something to do with the 717 going away? I don't know. I never said SWAPA knew about it in advance however quite a few SW FAs told me they were going to Delta months before it was announced, weird.

 

[SWA Bubba]

A good business decision will always be a good pilot decision, in the long run. That part of it even you should be able to understand. If you don't understand the obvious advantadges of issuing stock vs laying cold hard cash I can't help you. I'm sorry that SWAPA didn't deliver on the expectation to staple all of our group, it must be very painful for the first year FO's. You, and the rest of the SWAPA posters here who feel our group got a "good deal" is the only thing I post "contrary" opinions about. Outside of your pilot group your version of the good deal is not viewed in the same light by anyone.

Dear Knucklehead.... I mean "Reading comprehension-challenged individual,"

I have already agreed that buying AirTran was a business decision, and ultimately most probably a good one. Okay? Get it? I.....AGREED.....WITH......YOU. In fact, we are still in agreement about this. You can stop arguing with me (and yourself) about that.

By the way, I never said that issuing stock was the same as "laying cold hard cash," now did I? Can you show where I said that? What I did was to refute your stated notion, that using stock to partially buy a company somehow cost nothing. That was all. You can probably stop arguing about that as well.

Now...to your first statement: "A good business decision will always be a good pilot decision, in the long run." Here, I'm gonna' call BS. And I only need one word to make my case, and that word is "outsourcing." Any questions on that?

Good God, your former company even engaged in this (via codeshare, to save money), and yet you still can't help yourself being contrary to anything a Southwest guys says. Why don't you ask all the ALPA carriers who outsource up to 50% of their ASMs (saving the company tons of money by using cheaper labor--clearly a "good" business decision) if THEY think that that's "good" for the pilots, now or in the long run.

My point in our case was that this is causing pain for the pilots, both at Southwest and at AirTran. That's all I meant. And personal pain and trouble usually outweighs (in individuals' minds) the future good of the whole. Southwest pilots would rather have spent whatever amount of money on organic growth instead of this, and clearly all the FAT posters on here would have preferred never to have been acquired in the first place. See? We're in perfect agreement. No need to argue.

On the other hand, if you want to stick with your "must be good for the pilots" mantra, then please tell us how happy you are right now. Because with your logic, clearly GK's decision to buy AirTran must be good for you, since you're a pilot. Hell, you must be freakin' ecstatic! I mean, sure there's pain and heartache for you now, but keep your chin up and enjoy--in the long run, it'll be good for everyone! Including you!

On the third hand, keep arguing with me, even when I'm agreeing with you--because I'm an OSW guy. Whatever.

Bubba

 

[PCL_128]

What exactly did you think you were entitled too?

Our seniority, a$$hole.

 

[madjack]

"AirTran FO's had career expectations as well you know."

"Our seniority, a$$hole."

All that changed when your company was sold...sorry, but life is not fair...

 

[redflyer65]

Our seniority, a$$hole.

Not quite PCL. It's more the seniority you LOST, instead of my gain. That's the reality of the deal for most on both sides.

Too bad you guys couldn't have given me a 50% raise....a$$hole.

 

[JonnyKnoxville]

"AirTran FO's had career expectations as well you know."

"Our seniority, a$$hole."

All that changed when your company was sold...sorry, but life is not fair...

You better hope SWA doesn't get sold someday and while you are at it, tell me how that could never happen.

 

[redflyer65]

You better hope SWA doesn't get sold someday and while you are at it, tell me how that could never happen.

To be honest, I think PCL hoped AirTran would never be sold by his previous statements. If I worked there, I would have felt the same.

Just like the pilots of SW wanting organic growth instead of buying anyone.

So I agree Jonny.

 

[Clyde Frog]

"AirTran FO's had career expectations as well you know."

"Our seniority, a$$hole."

All that changed when your company was sold...sorry, but life is not fair...

It's these dumbass comments that are why you guys have an unenviable reputation among pretty much everyone. The arrogance is nauseating.

If AirTran was having financial issues or was bankrupt, you may have a point. However, given the facts, your opinion is asinine.

 

[Clyde Frog]

MJ, I also like how you quote my career expectations comment and ignore the rest of my post. I guess it's hard to argue with sound reasoning and facts.

 

[sfomarc]

Where do you come up with this drivel? SWA paid 1.4 billion for Airtran. 750 mil in cash, the rest in SWA stock. Airtran had 500 mil in the bank so net outlay was around 250 mil. GK told you why-gates, routes,planes, LGA and DCA slots, and all the ATL gates. Far cheaper to acquire than "grow organically" and he says SWA will reap 400 million in synergies this year.
You're a stockholder, go to the shareholders meeting a table a proposal to replace him for his incompetence.

GK also said there were no plans to close any Airtran cities and that the 717 was a great fit for SWA. I told a chief pilot that 717's will never see SWA paint. I stopped believing GK about 5 years ago.