Let's use 400K piano pushers as an example.

[Dan Roman]

That kinda sucks. At least you were given a fair shake on this last deal, so hopefully that will change your perspective.

You're trying to stir the pot aren't you

 

[SWA Bubba]

You're trying to stir the pot aren't you

And you weren't?

I wasn't talking about his support or non-support for the union. Personally, I don't do much more union-wise than read the material they put out and vote when it's appropriate to do so. I was more talking about the "don't care about anything anymore" comment, and the resultant joy that must be felt by other crew members as they work with a guy who sits like a lump, pissed off, and who won't even engage with other crew. Three days of that gets real old. Maybe he's not really like that in real life, but that's the impression his comments gave, and that's what -I- was referring to.

Bubba

 

[SWA Bubba]

In Fletch's defense, his feelings are what happens when a company tries to grow by acquiring another. The acquired pilots don't owe anything to a group that treated them the way SWA/SWAPA treated the AirTran pilots.
Before you get all "Roman hates SWA" on me, I don't know how it should have been handled or a better way. I'm just pointing out the fact that you can't acquire someones airline and expect them to be an enthusiastic supporter of the company that uprooted their career. It's one of the prices of a merger and why they fail more often then they succeed (think USAir/Piedmont)

Trust me, you won't get any argument from me here. I don't know any Southwest pilot who's happy about this, or is happy about the acquisition in general. Every one I've talked to wishes that we hadn't bought AirTran in the first place, but rather used those billions of dollars to grow our company organically. It's caused nothing but hurt feelings all around.

But it wasn't up to us. It was a business decision undertaken by management, and we had absolutely no say. Because we absolutely would have said no. We also can't change it. So we have to live with the results, and make the best of what the future holds.

Bubba

 

[fletch717]

.

But it wasn't up to us. It was a business decision undertaken by management, and we had absolutely no say. Because we absolutely would have said no. We also can't change it. So we have to live with the results, and make the best of what the future holds.

Bubba[/QUOTE]

No to rehash history or start a new fight, but you (the pilots)had a say in the intergration and you and your group chose to take as much from us as you could You used management to do your bidding. There was even a proposal to put our stapled guys behind your poolies. Next to AA's stapling of TWA it's the most lopsided intergration in the history of airline mergers. I'm living with it just like the TWA guys did, you won't hear me say anything about it. When you tell me how lucky I am I'll just nod and agree with you, while thinking something else. It's over, we got what we got, but for you to say you had no say in the intergration is completely false. To the victor go the spoils, and you won.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

We can make this better for the next generations at least.

I'll be retired by the time the crusade is in full swing...but be sure to let us know how that turns out.

 

[SWA Bubba]

.

But it wasn't up to us. It was a business decision undertaken by management, and we had absolutely no say. Because we absolutely would have said no. We also can't change it. So we have to live with the results, and make the best of what the future holds.

Bubba[/QUOTE

No to rehash history or start a new fight, but you (the pilots)had a say in the intergration and you and your group chose to take as much from us as you could You used management to do your bidding. There was even a proposal to put our stapled guys behind your poolies. Next to AA's stapling of TWA it's the most lopsided intergration in the history of airline mergers. I'm living with it just like the TWA guys did, you won't hear me say anything about it. When you tell me how lucky I am I'll just nod and agree with you, while thinking something else. It's over, we got what we got, but for you to say you had no say in the intergration is completely false. To the victor go the spoils, and you won.

Sorry, you're engaging in revisionist history. We had the same "say" as your pilots did--a vote. Sure, some guys were chanting "staple" before negotiations started, but that wasn't realistic any more than the straight relative seniority integration some of your side wanted.

As you clearly seem to have forgotten, during the negotiations, management stepped in with the first list that they created, and the basic framework for everything else, and let the two committees actually hash out only the smallest of details. When the first agreement failed the AirTran MEC, the company stepped in with a slightly adjusted list, and an overall simpler agreement, including substantially fewer perks for you guys. Again, the two union committees themselves actually decided very little of anything. In fact, considerably less with the second agreement.

What happened essentially boiled down to both sides starting off negotiating with their openers, then the company stepped in and said to both sides, "this is what WE think is fair. Vote on it."

You want to be angry and persist in thinking that SWAPA "chose" to screw you personally, then knock yourself out. Nobody's going to believe you, though.

As if any union has that kind of power.

Bubba

 

[list2002]

That's weird, because I feel the same way and it was my airline that did the acquiring.

 

[fletch717]

Bubba, your management did not care where we fell on the list, but SWAPA did. SWAPA went to mgmt for help that's why we were threatened. An arbitrated list would have looked alot different and everybody knows it. No merger outside of the AA/TWA and SWA/AT deal put 20 year captains in the right seat, no arbitrator would have let that happen to a company that was not in bankruptcy.

 

[Clyde Frog]

What happened essentially boiled down to both sides starting off negotiating with their openers, then the company stepped in and said to both sides, "this is what WE think is fair. Vote on it."

BS.

If management truly thought that their proposal was fair, it wouldn't have included threats and ultimatums. By playing in the gutter, they admitted that their proposal was not fair or equitable. I wonder why that was? Clearly, SWAPA had a hand in this. A 3 year old could understand that. SWAPA can lick my balls.

 

[Clyde Frog]

And as if anyone needs more proof...

Let's not forget SWAPAs rally at HQ in Dallas supporting management as they were actively screwing over AirTran pilots.

To say SWAPA played no part is totally disingenuous at best and and more like an outright lie.