Lets talk unions....

[fracsdispatcher]

After reviewing my other post "Lead follow or get the hell out of the way" i have decided to tell you frankly about unions.

Let me tell you this people. I have been in fractionals for almost 7 years now. Prior to that, we discussed it in college. Let me tell you, management HATES unions.

Say you start your own company and you hire some people that you trust with Millions of dollars worth of you own personal assets. Then some jackass lookin for a buck tells you that you no longer understand your company and the needs of the employees that you hired and says that you should pay him to talk to your own employees that you hired.

How would you feel?

Me personally, I think that paying a union rep to speak for you shows that you are either too scared or cannot find the words to speak for yourself.

Unions destroy the bottom line of a company and makes me realize that gangsters, I mean unions will do anything to make a buck. Even if it means capitalizing on a few weak minded men and women to pay them for their services to talk. Heck, if thats the case, pay us dispatchers, we'll be your backbone to do your deeds.

Dirty deeds, done dirt cheap. "AC/DC" still lives...

 

[hoover]

Unions also provide a collective voice. A lone individual has little or no power to stand up for himself when his employer threatens, harrasses or intimidates the employee in order to get what it wants. It can't do that to a collective group of people.

 

[homerjdispatch]

Momma says unions are the DEVIL!!!!

 

[exactlywrong]

Toyota makes $40 million a day in profits.

GM loses $16 million a day. They have no profit.

Guess which one has a "Union" ?

 

[Nindiri]

Me personally, I think that paying a union rep to speak for you shows that you are either too scared or cannot find the words to speak for yourself.

Me personally, I think that paying a lawyer to speak for you in court shows that you are either too scared or cannot find the words to speak for yourself.

Also me personally, I think that paying a doctor to diagnose your ills shows that you are either too scared or cannot find the words to dianose yourself.

Bottom line, I pay lots of other professionals to do things that are important to me but that I don't want to waste my time learning how to do myself.

 

[Occam's Razor]

Let me tell you this people. I have been in fractionals for almost 7 years now. Prior to that, we discussed it in college...but not at a college that teaches you how to put a comma before "people", so the sentence reads correctly. Let me tell you, management HATES unions. And kittens! They HATE kittens. Actually, they hate anything that prevents them from stuffing huge gobs of profits into the pockets of their $400-a-pair slacks...or snuggly into the cleavage between the $9000-a-pair fun bags they bought for their trophy wife.

Say you start your own company and you hire some people that you trust with Millions of dollars worth of you own personal assets. You started the company to lose money...wait!...that's not right! You started the company to make money. Lots of it. Circus tents full of money that you intended to spend on humanitarian endeavors...like a Bentley to drive your withered mother to church, or a congressman. Your very own congressman. Then some jackass (employees should be referred to as "jackass" to improve morale) lookin for a buck (The nerve! Who said jackasses deserved a buck?)tells you that you no longer understand your company and the needs of the employees that you hired and says that you should pay him to talk to your own employees that you hired. Nevermind that to do that he had to have been chosen by a majority of all the jackasses you employ...who does this jackass think he is? I mean really! Don't you hire a buttload of lawyer jackasses and HR jackasses to talk to your common jackasses for you? Just because you hire professionals to talk to your jackasses, what stupid law gives your jackasses the right to hire a professional to talk to them? Didn't your congressman tell you he could fix that? "Hey! Lawyer jackass! Get my congressman on the phone, pronto!"

How would you feel? Assuming you felt the slightest bit of empathy for your jackasses. In college they taught you that happy jackasses don't need unions because they're happy. Apparently, your jackasses don't have the same sort of empathy for you! Shouldn't they be as happy as you were when you brought your trophy wife home with those all-conference hooters? A vicarious thrill still counts as a "thrill"...right?

Me personally, I think that paying a union rep to speak for you shows that you are either too scared or cannot find the words to speak for yourself. I mean, really, ol' "Steve", the dispatcher that worked in the cubicle next to me...he stood up and spoke for himself. I hear he's a telemarketer in Duluth now, hawking timeshares at Camp Wobegon. But didn't it work for him? Oh, it didn't? Well, anyway...

Unions destroy the bottom line of a company and makes me realize that gangsters, I mean unions will do anything to make a buck for their jackasses. Even if it means capitalizing on a few weak minded men and women to pay them for their services to talk. Weaklings like New York City firefighters and policemen. Heck, if thats the case, pay us dispatchers, we'll be your backbone to do your deeds, Mr. Bossman. I'll do anything yoy say cuz you're always fair, and always put my well-being before the needs of the shareholders. After all...it's the shareholders that get the job done and make your company profitable!

Dirty deeds, done dirt cheap. "AC/DC" still lives...so I'll keep doing my best "dirt cheap". If I decide I'd like a piece of the success of your company, I'll mention it to your lawyer jackasses myself. After all, the catchy slogan is right: An Army of One!

Edited for clarity.

 

[ShutupandFly]

Me personally, I think that paying a lawyer to speak for you in court shows that you are either too scared or cannot find the words to speak for yourself.

Also me personally, I think that paying a doctor to diagnose your ills shows that you are either too scared or cannot find the words to dianose yourself.

Bottom line, I pay lots of other professionals to do things that are important to me but that I don't want to waste my time learning how to do myself.

The bottom line is when I pay professionals to provide a service, I have a choice it the profesionals I pay. The Union I have to deal with here was chosen for me and is costing me more than the dues it will be collecting. As far as being professionals, they are professionals, professional dispatchers not negotiators or lawyers.

 

[Nindiri]

Sounds like you guys chose poorly.

 

[Seat 0A]

delete

 

[405]

Edited for clarity.

Occam's Razor and hoover, do you know what the conditions were in our office before this union got voted in? I would bet you have no idea at all. My next question is do you have any idea what it's like in our office now? Again, I would bet you have no clue.

Thanks for your general opinions and comments.

I would like to extend a special thanks to Occam's Razor for making his special comments in red. You are truly a special person. I really appreciate it.

 

[405]

Sounds like you guys chose poorly.

They did choose poorly.

 

[Occam's Razor]

Occam's Razor and hoover, do you know what the conditions were in our office before this union got voted in? .

I would submit to you that it doesn't matter. If a majority of the dispatchers at your office voted "yes" for a union, then apparently conditions weren't as wonderful as you may have felt they were.

I would bet you have no idea at all. My next question is do you have any idea what it's like in our office now? Again, I would bet you have no clue..

You're kidding, right?

Here's how the thread opened: "i have decided to tell you frankly about unions."

Note it doesn't say, "The union at our company" or, "The union I have some experience with".

Then it gets better! "Unions destroy the bottom line of a company and makes me realize that gangsters, I mean unions will do anything to make a buck."

Like they've destroyed the bottom line at SWA?

Tell me again which one of us doesn't have a clue?

Thanks for your general opinions and comments..

"General"? You mean like: "Even if it means capitalizing on a few weak minded men and women to pay them for their services to talk."

So union members are "weak minded"?

I don't appreciate that sort of general slam.

I would like to extend a special thanks to Occam's Razor for making his special comments in red. You are truly a special person. I really appreciate it.

Since you sign on as a "Sarcastic Bastard", I'll assume you're posting in character.

Meet your Daddy.

 

[Nindiri]

They did choose poorly.

They chose poorly by apparently selecting a union that does not use the services of lawyers and accountants. At least that's the impression I get from ShutupandFly's post.

 

[405]

I would submit to you that it doesn't matter. If a majority of the dispatchers at your office voted "yes" for a union, then apparently conditions weren't as wonderful as you may have felt they were.

I would submit that it DOES matter. As I said and apparently you cannot fully grasp this concept, it does matter what conditions were like in the office before the union was voted in. It wasn't as bad as it is now. Is this difficult for you to understand? Improvements WERE being made. Occam, you have not worked in our office so you do not know anything about it. Quit defending a union just because you belong to ALPA.

You're kidding, right?

Here's how the thread opened: "i have decided to tell you frankly about unions."

Note it doesn't say, "The union at our company" or, "The union I have some experience with".

Then it gets better! "Unions destroy the bottom line of a company and makes me realize that gangsters, I mean unions will do anything to make a buck."

Like they've destroyed the bottom line at SWA?

Tell me again which one of us doesn't have a clue?

Obviously you have it all figured out. I can't win.

"General"? You mean like: "Even if it means capitalizing on a few weak minded men and women to pay them for their services to talk."

So union members are "weak minded"?

I don't appreciate that sort of general slam.

If that's the way you want to take it, fine with me.

Since you sign on as a "Sarcastic Bastard", I'll assume you're posting in character.

Meet your Daddy.

Can I borrow some money, Dad?

 

[Occam's Razor]

I would submit that it DOES matter. As I said and apparently you cannot fully grasp this concept, it does matter what conditions were like in the office before the union was voted in.

Ahh! You've acknowledged the "voting in" part. That's an important first step. From there, it's only a cognitive stroll toward understanding that not everyone you work with feels the same way you do. In fact, there is evidence to suggest MOST of them don't.

Can you tell us why that is? What could have possibly motivated a bunch of hard-charging, perfectly contented dispatchers to vote in a union? Mind control? Tractor beam? To impress Jodie Foster?

It wasn't as bad as it is now. Is this difficult for you to understand? Improvements WERE being made. Occam, you have not worked in our office so you do not know anything about it.

It's true. I haven't worked in your office. What's your point? Others have...and have determined that the "improvements" were either insufficient, or not as cool as you thought they were. You don't like their decision to speak with one voice on matters related to their employment.

The only logical reaction you could possibly have is that all unions are bad...

Quit defending a union just because you belong to ALPA.

If you'll quit bashing unions because you don't like yours.

Obviously you have it all figured out. I can't win.

Hey! You figured it out too!

Can I borrow some money, Dad?

Yes, you may. But not until you quit whining.

 

[81Horse]

I always knew management hated me. But this thing about the kittens -- I had no idea!

And now I have to wonder: what really happened to The Daughter's "Mr. Whiskers" when he got out of the house -- and never came back?

 

[Occam's Razor]

It gets worse! It seems airline managements aren't the only ones who hate kittens. The Fraternal Union of Cat & Kitten Undertakers (no acronym permitted) has also been organized to capture, "process", and sell kitty gut to an offshore tennis racket manufacturer.

 

[exactlywrong]

MEC says we should all jump off a cliff. Management says that we better bring parachutes. MEC says Management is lying and that it is a trick. So we all jump off the cliff. The End.

 

[CRJDispatchKid]

Speaking from a management perspective....I definitely hate cats.

I'm thinking about punting the one we have out back in the parking lot, clear across into the creek.

 

[En Mort Main]

posted on other thread but pertinent to this one as well

In fact this company sucked before the vote and sucks now....In my time since being here management has consistantly become more and more hostile to the dispatchers, for the sheer reason of getting revenge for the dispatchers trying to better their position in life through collective bargaining. The dispatchers who thought that the union would fix things instantly were mislead, these things take time.
Also when a contract is ratified it will be clear what management can do and what the dispatchers can do. For example if we had a contract we would not be turned into load controllers in addition to being dispatchers because that function would have not been in the contract. But since right now were managements b*tch they can make us do whatever they want and they do. And there is still room on your desk don't think they won't turn you into a crew scheduler as well. Oh yeah tell everyone how well your computer works and how management is working on fixing the problem.... Oh yeah their not..... just call Tom and ask. Hey how about those crew names that were to be entered into the computer 10 months ago... no wait 8 months ago... no wait 5 months ago.... oh yeah management is very responsive to our requests and things were improving.. are you still typing in names because i know i am.
Oh yeah and the claim things were improving can you give an example... since i have been here my flight benefits have been cut so that i have to pay fifty dollars for every family member on my benefits wether they use them or not, when i started i didn't have to pay, but now i do.... but does management nope theirs is still free. Oh and since management cares so much for us how much has your insurance rates increased since january...
more to continue once i'm not so pissed off about all the lies i believed
EN MORT MAIN

 

[81Horse]

... capture, "process", and sell kitty gut to an offshore tennis racket manufacturer.

NOOOOOooooooooo!

 

[Hold West]

Let me tell you this people. I have been in fractionals for almost 7 years now. Prior to that, we discussed it in college. Let me tell you, management HATES unions.

Yep - unions interefere with management's right to: wantonly fire people, sexually harass them, age discriminate, overwork and underpay, lie, violate environmental and labor laws, violate OSHA requirements, cheat the public, hire illegals, on and on.... They HATE that.

 

[Hold West]

Guess which one has a "Union" ?

Sago coal mine had no union - 12 dead because employees were afraid to speak out. That and Bush administration anti-labor policies killed them all.

 

[Diesel]

Hmmm lets see what my union got me. 40k signing bonus. 50 percent payraise, fly from home, better schedule, better work rules, the list keeps going on and on.

Think about this though. Managment gets the union it deserves. Look at SWa and how much their pilots love the company but hate mgmt.

 

[Coool Hand Luke]

There is a reason why these companies do not like unions. Think about it. What's so bad about having an "employment contract"?

Let me ask you, how many upper level managers, do you think, have "employment contracts"? So if they think it's a good idea to have an "employment contract" for themselves, why is it such a good idea for you TO NOT have one?

nuff said.

 

[JPAustin]

The argument for/against unionism is the chicken or the egg argument. Which caused which? Did unionism cause angst against employees, or did management create the angst which forged unionism? There are arguments for both, but historically during the Industrial Revolution it is agreed that the managment created worker environments were far left of ideal.

Without unionism, the federal and state laws workers enjoy today as well as research into quality management concepts (to curtail the need for unions), would have never come to fruition. Many managements, and I should say SMART managements, now recognize that employees are as much intellectual capital as are the infrastructures supporting the product. As a result, to improperly manage the employee intellectual capital would be akin to improperly managing the infrastructure capital and will lead to the firm's faultering or demise in the worse cases.

If a company builds it's infrastructure intellectual capital correctly in the first place, then there is no need for artificial inefficiencies (constant inspections, retrofitting, etc) to ensure that the infrastructure will work as needed. If a company builds it's employee intellectual capital correctly in the first place, then there is no need for artificial inefficiencies from the unions to ensure the employees will work as needed.

Long story short, if a company wants a competitive edge, it won't need a union. It is not a cause-and-effect argument to say that the company with the lowest employee overhead is the most profitable. It might be correlational, but not cause-and-effect.

To be competitive in modern capitalism and to survive ever-evolving capitalism, a firm must treat its employees as intellectual capital, not necessary evils detrimental to the bottom-line. Unions have served their purpose and served it well. Those who fought for the rights and PROPER management concepts we enjoy today should be applauded and forever studied lest we forget. Nevertheless, unionism as we know it is in its twilight years and descending into the past.

 

[DJRobbioRobbio]

After reviewing my other post "Lead follow or get the hell out of the way" i have decided to tell you frankly about unions.

Let me tell you this people. I have been in fractionals for almost 7 years now. Prior to that, we discussed it in college. Let me tell you, management HATES unions.

Say you start your own company and you hire some people that you trust with Millions of dollars worth of you own personal assets. Then some jackass lookin for a buck tells you that you no longer understand your company and the needs of the employees that you hired and says that you should pay him to talk to your own employees that you hired.

How would you feel?

Me personally, I think that paying a union rep to speak for you shows that you are either too scared or cannot find the words to speak for yourself.

Unions destroy the bottom line of a company and makes me realize that gangsters, I mean unions will do anything to make a buck. Even if it means capitalizing on a few weak minded men and women to pay them for their services to talk. Heck, if thats the case, pay us dispatchers, we'll be your backbone to do your deeds.

Dirty deeds, done dirt cheap. "AC/DC" still lives...

I'm not against unions, however I think that sometimes they like to use collective bargaining (which is totally legal) as a means to force a company into getting what they want, especially when the straits look dire. A great line from a great cartoon Rocko's Modern Life in a little song called "Corporate America" pretty much explains it:

You can't fight city hall
You can't fight corporate America
They are big and you are small,
you can't fight city hall.

With that being said, as mentioned before it does allow for the mere employee to voice his opinions, as power in numbers does stand a chance against those big wigs with their big wig salary
However in the airline industy, unions are sooooo pointless....The airline industry is about CHANGE, and those that can adapt to it quickly are the soul survivors, while those that have overinflated pay scales, ineconomical pay raises, fleet and route structure (ie. they could make Enron look clean) are the first round draft cuts. Things like guranteed pay increases over the next 'x-amount' of years is ridiculous. Or you'll end up doing what Delta did, and approve a massive pay increase for your pilots, and then have something as devistating as 9/11 happen all over again. It's been proven that the airline industy works in 5 - 7 year cycles of gain and recession, but nobody estimates how much gain will be made, and nobody can deduce the amount of loss attributed to a recession. In all reality, if you work in the aviation industry, you do it because you love it, not because you have to, and you should be able to understand, and adapt to the cycles of the industry, and not piss and moan when things don't go your way, because people just aren't flying in your goddamn airplanes anymore. As my ground school instructor would commonly say, "McDonalds is always hiring".


P.S. CEO's are paid too much anyways. WTF are you going to do with an 80 million dollar bailout package, or a 15 million dollar yearly salary. Only a few people in the airline industry are even WORTHY of such a salary, and those are the people that have shaped the industy, or performed miracles to their own airline (a la: Eddie Rickenbacker, Juan Trippe, Gordon Bethune, CR Smith)

 

[RVSM]

1. Your sig is wrong. A person doesn't fall at 9.8 m/p2. That is the rate of acceleration of gravity. You accelerate initially at that rate but your falling speed quickly reaches a terminal velocity dependant on drag coefficients. I guess the $3060 you spent on PS103 didn't stick.

2. If unions are the big awful profit eating, business destroying monsters then how is it that the most profitable airline is also the most heavily unionized?

Have a nice day.

CAS
ERAU 1992

 

[DJRobbioRobbio]

1. Your sig is wrong. A person doesn't fall at 9.8 m/p2. That is the rate of acceleration of gravity. You accelerate initially at that rate but your falling speed quickly reaches a terminal velocity dependant on drag coefficients. I guess the $3060 you spent on PS103 didn't stick.

2. If unions are the big awful profit eating, business destroying monsters then how is it that the most profitable airline is also the most heavily unionized?

Have a nice day.

CAS
ERAU 1992

Oh no I'm aware that you fall alot faster than 9.8 m/s^2 in terms of terminal velocity. But the speed at which you fall is not a given. Earth's acceleration is , hence why I mentioned the term CONSTANT.

Apparently the 80 grand you dropped into Riddle's pocket didn't fare too much for your reading skills either.

 

[DJRobbioRobbio]

2. If unions are the big awful profit eating, business destroying monsters then how is it that the most profitable airline is also the most heavily unionized?

B/c there is a great working relationship between the pilots union, and the people in upper management. Not to mention, most WN pilots are hired with them already knowing that they're not going to get paid the big bucks like their DL or UA counterparts to fly airplanes, b/c that's just not what Southwest is about. Their corporate philosophy is about saving YOU the consumer money, while making it very lucrative and cost effect for the company. Southwest's unions understand this, and everybody interviewed by Southwest has to have a grave understand of this philosophy (the pilots even more so), or they're just not hired.

It's a lot easier to edge out negotiations with your unions if everybody in the company is playing on the same level field.