Welcome to Flightinfo.com

  • Register now and join the discussion
  • Friendliest aviation Ccmmunity on the web
  • Modern site for PC's, Phones, Tablets - no 3rd party apps required
  • Ask questions, help others, promote aviation
  • Share the passion for aviation
  • Invite everyone to Flightinfo.com and let's have fun

Let's talk stopping on the taxiway, setting the brake & doing the after landing SOPs!

Welcome to Flightinfo.com

  • Register now and join the discussion
  • Modern secure site, no 3rd party apps required
  • Invite your friends
  • Share the passion of aviation
  • Friendliest aviation community on the web

UndauntedFlyer

Ease the nose down
Joined
Feb 26, 2006
Posts
1,062
Let's talk stopping on the taxiway, setting the brake & doing the after landing SOPs!

What do you think? Should students be taught to turn off the runway and do their after landing duties while taxiing or should they set the brake and take care of these things then?

Your comments are welcome!
 
My opinion: definitivly stop at the end of the runway intersection and do things when all the action is over. Or at least slow down considerably and do checklist while just slowly rolling forward and waiting for taxi clearance.

When I rush it and try to turn off lights, turn off transponder and retract flaps while I'm about to turn off the taxiway and contact ground, even if I'm not a student pilot anymore, I find that every now and then, I forget one item because I didnt refer to the checklist, and in any case my attention is needed outside the cockpit when exiting the runway. Trying to contact ground, do the checklist and taxi the airplane at high speed off the runway into an intersection is just too much going on at once, especially for students.

But I see no need to set the park brake...have anyone ever done that?
 
Still working on my PPL, I have been taught to stop after exiting the runway and go through the post landing checklist. It's just a few items, flaps up, transponder stby, landing lights. The flaps I put up during the landing roll anyway and the transponder automatically goes to standby anyway. So all it really is turning off the landing lights. But yeah I would say, from a student's perspective, to have them stop and run the checklist. I think this emphasizes using the checklist for every phase of flight, even when you're trying to get the plane back to the hangar so that .1 on the hobbes doesn't come around.
 
UndauntedFlyer said:
What do you think? Should students be taught to turn off the runway and do their after landing duties while taxiing or should they set the brake and take care of these things then?

Your comments are welcome!

I don't think we should verify the throttles by moving the assumed dead one when performing all kinds of single engine fun in a twin! Dead foot dead engine good enough! Who needs VERIFY!
 
There's been alot of debate here at Riddle about that...but more the takeoff final items than the after-landing. We always stop for after landing, because (a) We're expected to follow SOPs to a T, and (b) The local area is extremely busy with training traffic, and stopping to check is always a good idea.

As far as on takeoff, with private students I usually tell them run through the takeoff flow first, then start rolling. With more advanced students, they should be able to do the final items on the roll. ATC of course prefers the latter of the two. I've seen too many beginner students get rushed, and miss important items on the flow, so that method seems to work better. One of my private students flies often with a buddy of his who flies charter, and he wants to do EVERYTHING on the roll...which works for charter, but not so good when learning a new airplane. I usually tell him Whoooaa hoss....let's stop here and run through that checklist. He'll be a good freight or charter driver one day though:)
 
The after landing duties for typical trainer airplanes are very limited.

1. Flaps up
2. X-P to off
3. Landing light off (if used)
4. Carb Heat off (if not a F/I engine)
5. Fuel boost pump off (if equipped)
6. Open the window (if it's hot outside)

Personally I think that by stopping to take care of these simple items it is disruptive to ATC and these items are really not that difficult to accomplish while slowly taxiing. No, I don't recommend using a written checklist for these items while still taxiing, but if you think you can accomplish the above items by a flow while taxiing and then re-address them with a written list in the parking checklist it works better for the ATC movement of inbound traffic.

Your questions and/or comments are welcome.
 
My .02 Cents.....

Will sound dorky but unless it's a short field landing...
I teach my students not to touch ANYTHING until off the runway.
I also do not let them touch anything between two active runways. I
have them wait until we are completely off the runway, have them do
the after landing flow, THEN verify items with the checklist.

If it's really busy, I prefer they keep everything dirty until they are not in anyones way, and they know where they are going on the field.
Ideally they clean up before continuing.
 
greyhound said:
Will sound dorky but unless it's a short field landing...
I teach my students not to touch ANYTHING until off the runway.
I also do not let them touch anything between two active runways. I
have them wait until we are completely off the runway, have them do
the after landing flow, THEN verify items with the checklist.

If it's really busy, I prefer they keep everything dirty until they are not in anyones way, and they know where they are going on the field.
Ideally they clean up before continuing.

Personally, this is great advice and it gives your student situationall awareness of the fact that there is no hurry to do the after landing duties. Even if they are done in the parking area for most items except maybe carb hear. Great Post.
 
Depends on the environment. After taxiing off the active, if there is room for a complete stop and an after landing check, than so be it. Where I fly the immeadiate taxi way after the runway is usually pretty packed. I just have the student continue to the initial ramp area, pull off to the side, and run through the procedure. Then we continue on to parking.

If the ramp is to busy then the after landing checks are usually done at a slow taxi speed with the emphasis on safety.

I will always support the theroy of running a through check while stopped after landing. This reinforces the importance of checklist usage espcially for the "primary" student. A "special emphasis" area that is not paid enough attention to it seems like.

This is good to display to the students, but what I really wish I could say is "just get this dam thing to parking, its 112 degrees out here!!"
 
Run-Up

I know that this thread is about after landing, however when the parking brake was mentioned I wanted to ask about the run-up. Do you teach using the parking brake during the run-up? I've heard some say don't because a brake could lock up or the student may forget the brake. The positive of using the brake would be the airplane will hopefully not start forward if the student comes off of the toe brakes accidentally.

What do you think? Thanks in advance. One school I teach with says yes the other says no.

On exiting the Runway I teach for the student to stop and clean up the aircraft and then taxi to the ramp, however this can cause a problem if there is a lot of air traffic and you have another aircraft wanting to exit the Runway at your taxiway intersection.
 
I agree with not touching things on the landing roll. When i did my intial with the feds, he grilled me on touching the flaps on the roll. we were doing a normal landing. as for the faa especially on a checkride with the feds dont touch anything till clear and at a complete stop. just a warning, but we all know its better for atc flow, especially at largere airports.
 
Run-ups.....

I wouldn't use the parking brake .

I would not rely on it to keep me stationary. I would have to really trust it and frequently check to make sure I'm not rolling as I advance power.
Again I teach:
1) Straighten out the nose wheel before run up.
2) As you advance power you MUST look outside to make sure you aren't "creeping up".
A lot of times students are fixating on the tachometer trying to adjust the right RPM's and we start to roll so I tell them "We're moving" and they look out and slam the brakes.

They usually remember to hold the brakes firmly and they stop depending on the parking brake after this.
 
It's funny how every school I have been to is very adamant about certain procedures, one way or the other. As a commercial pilot I do everything on the go (yes, even the engine run up. Just got to be quick with no one in front). As a CFI, there's time to teach safety, because I know that if I don't the student will develop the wrong attitude toward safety.

The parking break thing. I use it when ever I'm stationary in a non-movement area. (Parking, and run-up areas. Not on taxi-ways) I dare a student to leave that break on while trying to taxi. If it sets right, he'll know something's wrong. If a break locks up, the student will catch on real quick.

Above all, don't stop with a crooked nose wheel.
 
I assume you mean a nosewheel that's not aligned straight ahead by it's steering mechanism, and not a mechanically crooked nosewheel. I'll bite...why not?

Why not use the parking brake?

I don't know that teaching the student to stop and set the parking brake is warranted...especially at a busy field where stopping to execute the checklist is definitely not the norm. However, proceedures and technique may be taught which maintain a safe operation. Verifying out loud the flaps, pointing to them, befor raising the, as part of a challenge and response checklist is one such measure...even if the student is alone in the cockpit on a solo flight, the student should always be taught to execute the checklist and do it out loud as challenge and response. Standardize.

This can be done on the roll as well as stopped.

If a second person is on board, be it pilot, passenger, examiner, inspector, check airman, or the ubiquitous easter bunny, that person may be used to move a control such as flaps, or taxi the airplane while the pilot moves the flaps, or look outside for traffic, or read the checklist, or any number of cockpit/crew resource management techniques. (I have it on good authority that the Easter bunny is a poor control manipulator, and lacks opposable thumbs, though that is second hand information, so take it as you will).

Waiting until clear of the runway may or may not be appropriate; it's probably generally accepted and appropriate in the training environment. In the real world I've been known to retract flaps while landing or coming over the fence for short field proceedures or gusty tight conditions. I don't teach that to an elementary student, though I may teach and demonstrate it to a company pilot who has the experience and judgement to use such a technique. Likewise, when operating a fabric covered airplane on a loose surface, retracting flaps and configuring while on the runway may be a better choice, and using flaps to return weight to wheels on ice, slush, snow, etc, may be a preferable technique...especially in places where stopping is inadvisable (skis, for example).

I do insist that gear and flaps always require two calls, even if they must be from the same person when there's only one person on board. If two are on board and one starts moving gear or flaps without verification and confirmation, somebody is going to get their hand slapped. Regardless of w(h)eather the aircraft is still in motion.

If the brakes are hot, an aborted takeoff has just been performed, or the aircraft is practicing landings, applying the parking brake may not be warranted, or advisable. I had a brake failure a few weeks ago after a normal landing, a few minutes on the ground and a taxi to takeoff. The brakes were applied while sitting loading on the ground, and when I got to the end of the runway, I couldn't turn left. Enough heat transfer had occured to the brake unit from the disc with the park brake applied (hot desert location with strong crosswinds on a downhill runway at high density altitude, on eastern-bloc brakes) that my left brake faced. I could turn right all day, but not left, and brakes were the only steering. I shut it down at the end of the runway, chocked it, and waited a half hour before I had brakes again.

Setting the park brake on a really hot brake can boil the hydraulic fluid in the caliper (or the expander tube for those who remember them), damage seals and packings, and transfer enough heat to the brake assy that it fades or is disabled. It can also lead to cracking of the pads, warping or impressing of the disc, and overal brake wear, damage, or reduced life. After landing or an aborted takeoff, even if little brake has been used, tire and brake temperature is at it's hottest, and this is the worst time to apply the park brake for any extended period.

If you're using the brake while going heads down to run a checklist, so be it. The park brake is there for a reason, but remember that it has it's limitations.

As far as taxiing clear, okay...but stopping isn't always possible or justified. For primary training, it's probably not a bad idea initially, but it's not real world, and it comes back to the addage that you train how you fight. Train the student to operate in the real world and standardize it that way, and the student has a much greater chance of success in daily operation, and of avoiding lapses in checklists and proceedure in the future.


--Incidentally, doing mag checks "on the go" is probably not a good idea. Adding power while holding brakes is bad form and only causes the brakes to absorb energy in the form of heat that they shouldn't have to take. It causes wear, diverts your attention at a time when both the mag check and taxiing should have your full attention, and doesn't allow adequate time to properly examine the engine responses. If you're only listening for a quick drop and no banging, then you're missing a great deal of what's important in that check. Stop, and do it right.

This is especially true of other checks, such as propeller cycling (where is it governing at the bottom end with barometric power applied...have you ever looked?), feather checks, autofeather checks, governing or governor checks, etc. Stop and devote your time and attention to the systems...and yes, that's a good time to use the parking brake. Using them when the aircraft is stopped, rather than moving, is a whole lot easier and lower temperature, and it's really their forte.

If you're flying something carbureted, and doing carb heat checks on the go, then you really should be stopped and concentrating on the check...which should be much more than a quick on and off check for a drop in RPM or change in manifold pressure. You're checking to see if ice has formed, how far the drop is, and to melt any ice that has formed...it should be a good fifteen second or more check, and shouldn't be done on the fly, so to speak.
 
Last edited:
Straight nose gear before run-up...

Supposedly this is so you don't put too much stress on the nose wheel as you advance power. I personally like to see that my students roll forward just enough to straighten out the nose wheel if they turned to face in the proper direction before the run-up (into wind, prop blast not going towards others etc.etc.).

I'll admit though, we probably place more stress while landing in a x-wind and having the nose wheel cocked when it touches the ground because of rudder use.

I can't say I always wait until I center the rudder, thus centering the nose wheel before it hits the ground. Not really sure if it's possible in some x-wind conditions, but I'm sure this is worse than the run-up scenario.
 
What is the function of the centering cam in your landing gear assembly when the strut is at full extention with the weight off the wheels? Is the nosewheel cocked in flight, regardless of your rudder inputs?

Are you concerned about putting stress on the wheel assembly, forks, or the nosegear assy if the nosewheel is cocked during a stationary runup?
 
I tell my students to keep it straight when parking/stopping. Nothing funnier then when they turn left just before entering the runway so they can clear final. If they stop before straightening the nose-wheel they'll be in for a surprise when they can't get it turning back right. Particularly in a Skyhawk that doesn't have a direct connection, but a Bengee type connection. With full rudder peddle that nose wheel will not move until you've advanced a few feet toward the grass. With such little speed, differential braking is useless. Might as well straighten that beast while you have differential braking on your side.

Taxing and braking is very poor form Avbug, I do agree. In a CE-172S there is very little to check in the run up and a little throttle won't get you screaming down the taxiway before it can be finished. Clearly not a technique I would teach students.

But very well put again, Avbug. We've seen that there really are a variety of reason to do things differently with out many silver bullets. Maybe that's why aviation is so exiting. We haven't forced everything in to protocol. It just goes to show the tasks placed on a CFI to really know his/her environment and teach the students accordingly.
 
What's the temp ?:smash:
UndauntedFlyer said:
What do you think? Should students be taught to turn off the runway and do their after landing duties while taxiing or should they set the brake and take care of these things then?

Your comments are welcome!
 
tracearabians said:
What's the temp ?:smash:



Well today it's 100F where I live. So keep it rolling and do the after landing duties during a slow taxi by the cockpit "flow" method. Then back this up with a written checklist after shutdown along with the parking checklist.
 
Actually, my technique is to always complete the after-landing duties by a flow pattern during a slow taxi, shutdown by a flow pattern and then complete a challenge-response parking checklist as a backup.

If I do need to stop in order to complete the after landing duties, such as when I'm flying an unfamiliar airplane or one that is difficult to taxi safely without my full attention, then I stop once I feel I'm not going to be disruptive to the flow of traffic or disruptive to the needs of ground control or the tower's operations. The after landing duties just don't need to be accomplished immediately after exiting the runway. Stopping right after turning off the runway is often times disruptive to someone.
 
Last edited:
Depends on the aircraft, really, and the operation. I've seen a lot of pilots attempt to rush though the proceedures by flow, and catch up later. I've seen pilots completing the after start checklist in the climb, and even the before start checklist in the climb.

I fly a definite flow-airplane, and there's little or no stopping coming or going. I ran the flow this year on a departure for a going fire, one side of the cockpit to the other. I omitted the printed checklist, even though I always do a verbal challenge and response when alone in the cockpit or in a crewed cockpit. As I powered up and began the roll, I realized the controls felt stiff, and I found the drop-down internal control lock was in place. Proceedure in that airplane has been to install the lock upon rolling out and slow enough to do so, and remove it prior to locking the tailwheel for takeoff...the control surfaces need the protection.

The result was a takeoff roll with the controls locked. I was able to pop the lock safely and continue (as an abort in that aircraft is very unwise when loaded)...but that's the price of stupidly failing to execute the checklist on my part, at the phase of flight when one should...when I elected to unwisely rely upon flows. Flows that were executed twice; once after landing, once before takeoff (no shutdown inbetween; hot loading, hot refueling).

Checklists are given in phase for a reason. Flow, and back it up with the checklist, but executing the checklist when it should be executed instead of waiting until the aircraft is completely over that phase of flight is unwarranted, in my opinion.

I got tied up on a drop recently which was a formation run down a long canyon into the sun with high terrain close on all sides, to hit a target that was hidden in a surprise turn at the last minute on the bottom. Again, I concentrated on the flow and the run-in, and there was a lot going on. At the bottom of the run, I applied power and the temperature came up, indicating gas generator operation, but no torque was available. No power; I'd experienced an engine failure. I glanced down to check that the fuel boost and ignitors were on, and they were not...they would have been had I executed the checklist prior to joining up with the other tanker on the run.

I turned them on quickly, and fortunately it wasn't lack of fire or fuel that caused my engine failure. I had a catastrauphic failure with a failed bearing seal that ported all my oil overboard...but imagine if it had been a fuel flow issue or flame issue...my failure to execute the checklist, despite mitigating circumstances, would have meant the impossibility of a relight were it required at an extremely critical time. The flow didn't catch it; flow backed up by the checklist, verbally, would have.

I preach and teach risk elimination; had I executed the checklist, I would have eliminated that risk. I'm a firm believer in use of the checklist when it's called for in it's appropriate phase of flight or ground ops...even if that means continuing the checklist during the taxi. My own stupid mistakes and behavior keep reinforcing this; with luck I'll learn the lesson before it hurts me one day. I hope the same for everyone else.
 
As students advance to a two pilot operation, you don't really want them in the habit of taxiing and doing a checklist do you? IMO the flow while taxiing (single pilot), followed up by a written checklist is a great method, I don't think the FAA would have a problem with that, just my 2 cents.
 
I don't have a problem with a student advancing to a two pilot operation doing a checklist while rolling...or a student in a single pilot situation executing the checklist while rolling. If the opportunity to stop is available, this is better...but I've always executed the checklist on the out loud with a challenge and response when alone, and a student can too...and can do it on the roll if properly taught.

Stopping just isn't possible at some locations, nor is it a real-world form of operating in those locations.

I would rather see the emphasis on the checklist completion stresed, rather than the need to stop to execute it.

After all, we don't pull over in flight when executing a checklist, do we?
 
I don't think it really matters as long as you teach your student to get off the active as quickly as possible. The only time I taught a student to wait was when I was giving a complex endorsement and I wanted them to verify with me that it was the flap they were getting ready to put up.
 
Are we talking about LGA on a Friday afternoon? Better keep it moving.
 
I think it also brings up if a student pilot should rely on flows or written checklists too. I use both now, flows for T/O but when I do the run-up I use the written checklist.
 

Latest resources

Back
Top Bottom