Let's Start an Airline-Hypothetically

[Astra Guy]

Good points, all. Short skirts and go-go boots, it is then. Startup money, after conferring with the founders, is $10B cash. If necessary the founders could come up with $15B if they mortgaged their homes....is this enough?

Let's go to the desert. 757 seems like the mainline airplane. If we opt to have short haul regionals they will be internalized and part of the mainline. Simple flow through precept. 717s are great airplanes and comfortable...2X2 seating thoughout, conceptually. Any comments about this?

Nothing in our model is no frills. First class treatment, real food, and real deals for our customers. Business class should occupy ~20% of the airplane's available space.

 

[SDF2BUF2MCO]

Suggestion

Astra, from a customer marketing viewpoint, I suggest you consider going with the gee whiz stuff like JB has. In addition, to sell food on the airplane. I don't know how well it is working, but some of the airlines are doing it. Think if an arrangement with Subway and Pizza Hut could be made you'd be able to sell some stuff. Would offer this on flights over 1 1/2 hours (??). Being presumptuous this is doable.
The thing I've noticed in my travels is that the general public is bored with flying. The entertainment stuff and food keep people "happy" and preoccupied. I get a window seat and a book or magazine and look out the window the majority of the time but this is not the norm for most of the travelling public.
Over the holidays we flew a CO 767-400 that had entertainment stuff on it. My kids loved it. To my understanding JB has more bells and whistles (?). The kids could care less about the view from top.
Hey Bobby, make sure you hire good looking women for stewardesses er flight attendants. Great for morale bad for morals though. You can always (most of the time) teach them how to be good flight attendants but you can't teach'em to be good looking !

 

[Publishers]

founders

I just want to meet the founders if they can morgage their homes and dig up another $5.0B.

the amounts mentioned would be much greater than any airline known to man but that is OK.

We do have to realize that with that much startup money, there are three thousand better things to do with it than start some stupid airline. We could start an airline with one months interest.

 

[Astra Guy]

SD,

Good points...it looks like we will be able to put a few bells and whistles in. Keeping the customers occupied sure makes a huge difference in their overall experience.

Publishers,

Well, I am not telling who they are! LOL I like the treatment I am getting from them, by myself! No doubt that these folks could do better investing their bucks in something else. It is the principle of the poor treatment by them and theirs that makes it worth their vendetta.

All of this being said as we work through the model we should be realistic about how much we really need to get this thing going and be successful. These folks might want to invest in something else with the excess or give more money away.

 

[bobbysamd]

Hiring

Hey Bobby, make sure you hire good looking women for stewardesses er flight attendants. Great for morale bad for morals though. You can always (most of the time) teach them how to be good flight attendants but you can't teach'em to be good looking . . .

FA hiring is not in any of my departments, which are Training, Legal or Media Relations! I'll pass your suggestion on to the boss.

I'm waiting to get the go-ahead for hiring in my Training Department. But, first, I have to (1) get current and (2) get typed so I can properly teach ground school and sim. I do expect the company to train me on its nickel. No P-F-T here.

Speaking of hiring, I would propose a concept completely foreign to aviation hiring. That we consider applicants for all positions strictly on the basis of their qualifications. In other words, LORs, inside-company recommendations and references from lodge brothers and neighbors who know the Chief Pilot's brother's cousin will carry no weight whatsoever. Truly egalitarian hiring. Every applicant gets a fair shake. No 300-hour wonders, a la United, either.

Comments, Mr. Astra Guy?

 

[TonyC]

Re: Hiring

FA hiring is not in any of my departments, which are Training, Legal or Media Relations! I'll pass your suggestion on to the boss.

If you let the SIC Captain serve the pizza and beer, you won't need FAs.

Truly egalitarian hiring.

And pay 'em all the same, too.

Sell Superior Safety to the masses? "Our FA's are qualified to land the plane, too!"

Send that to the Marketing Department (who are all type-rated, by the way, and also get paid the same).

 

[Astra Guy]

bobbysamd,

I'm with you on the hiring business. No good old boy system here. That method always seemed ludicrous to me. A friend of a friend of a friend actually leads to, more oftentimes than not, watered down skills. Qualifications and test results, tempered with objective HR interviews leads to hiring the best available folks.

 

[Astra Guy]

Turbo,

Sure, we would love to have those. I think we can gleen the 757 numbers for free, as well. I think that it will really boil down to these two aircraft.

Someone mentioned engine and avionics insurance programs. My experience has been that we would be much better off to pay by the hour rather than living with the lack of support when something breaks. It also allows one to budget in advance with some level of accuracy.

Thanks Turbo.

 

[bobbysamd]

More pilot hiring and recruiting thoughts, and straight talk about the pilot shortage

Qualifications and test results, tempered with objective HR interviews leads to hiring the best available folks.

And our pilot recruiters will not attend any Kit Darby seminars, either.

Eventually, we would advertise for our flight academy. But, since we and not our students would pay for training, we would not have to trot out pilot shortage to hook them. We can be completely honest and candid about our program and tell them there is no pilot shortage, but can look them straight in the eye about guaranteeing them a job upon completion of our training because they will be our employees upon acceptance to our school!

I'd still run glossy ads in pilot magazines for a time, but once word gets out that we are completely straightforward and honest about careers with our company we will have no shortage of applicants and will not need to advertise. An unfortunate downside to our honest approach toward pilot opportunities and the pilot un-shortage is that Comair, etc. will have to step-up its high-pressure sales tactics to keep its school in business.

 

[Astra Guy]

Your points are well taken. There would not be a shortage once our procedures become more common knowledge.

I believe a mentoring system could be put in place whereby each new hire would be assigned a senior associate as a mentor. The ideal situation would allow for a face to face meeting with their mentor and from that point forward the two could communicate via email or telephonically.

I have learned in managing people that once you make it clear that you want them to succeed and they can count on some form of help along the way, that they become a more valuable asset. Mentoring from a position of experience and knowledge can go a long way in getting the best out of a person. The new hire will not want to let himself, his mentor or his company down.

Too often folks nowadays are asking what have you done for me lately when thinking about their company. With the right attitude from the people management side that individual would ask what can I do to help the company to be a viable, profitable, mutually beneficial and pleasant place to work. It is all about empowerment and trust.

 

[bobbysamd]

Mentoring

I believe a mentoring system could be put in place whereby each new hire would be assigned a senior associate as a mentor. The ideal situation would allow for a face to face meeting with their mentor and from that point forward the two could communicate via email or telephonically.

I have learned in managing people that once you make it clear that you want them to succeed and they can count on some form of help along the way, that they become a more valuable asset. Mentoring from a position of experience and knowledge can go a long way in getting the best out of a person. The new hire will not want to let himself, his mentor or his company down.

That is why we will pull line pilots off the line for periodic duty as flight instructors and TAC officers in our flight academy. Assignment to our school will be plum duty. Pilots will keep their seniority numbers and guarantees. They would have to move to our school's domicile, but we would make it worth it by paying their moves and providing a primary residence maintenance allowance. Also assistance is finding schools for their kids and employment for spouses.

Well-run lawfirms assign mentors to young associate attorneys. New lawyers might know law, but they don't know how to be lawyers. They need mentors (who are sometimes paralegals!). So do new pilots.

Failure will not be an option with our airline. Everyone will be given every opportunity to succeed.

 

[Astra Guy]

One thing we do in our little real life operation is to send out a pax survey annually. We do this to help measure how well we are meeting the needs of our customers. We ask pointed questions about our performance and give them an opportunity to respond with narratives as welll as a numerical ranking of 1-10. We all know that surveys typically lead to a small percentage of respondents. However, the data gleened from the people that do respond can help shape the level of service we provide.

Have you ever seen any customer comment cards in the seat pocket in front of the passenger's seats in an airline? Maybe they are there and I have just missed them. In addition to having those available for all passengers it could be mentioned in the briefing given by flight attendants. As an additional method of giving pax a way to respond, get their email address and email a questionaire to them after each flight they are on. This might result in changing how we perform while better meeting their needs.

The airline business is primarily about getting people from point a to point b. While most airlines do that fairly well, they treat their paying customers poorly. This method of seeking their input on how to better serve them actually gives them a feeling of what they say matters. And actually it does. If someone fills out a comment card or responds to an email questionaire we would have to provide a response and not just a pat response. Talk about building brand loyalty....this could be huge. It also would provide data upon which individual performance can be measured when it comes to CSRs, FAs, Pilots, etc.

 

[Publishers]

Astra

I ran into a few of your investors at a Super Bowl party I was hanging around last night.

The one guy was bragging on how is son was now going to be an airline pilot. Secondly we discussed out sourcing all the training to a company to a friend of mine. One thought it would be kool for his wife to set up a flight attendant school and lease the attendants to the airline like Valujet did.

I have reviewed Bobby's mentoring system and find it way out of line with our projections. We simply cannot bear the cost of this program nor will we do any intial aircraft training in the first year.

Lastly, as we have not written the manuals yet or secured any aircaft at this point, perhaps all the discussion of mentoring is too soon. The FAA is telling me that it will be about a year to a year and a half to get the ceritificate. Your boss had me call a few insurance providors and see how London feels about new carriers. We will need to carry around $500million in basic liability with a balloon over the top. They will be looking at 6000 hour pilots with 1000 as pic in an aircraft that we choose.

 

[enigma]

What do you guys hope to achieve? Are you stroking your own egos? Are you attempting to show that pilots don't have a clue about airline operations? What?

regards,
enigma
edit: this posted right after Publishers post only out of coincidence. I didn't intend to insinuate that Publishers was one of "you guys".

 

[Astra Guy]

Enigma,

We aren't trying to "prove" anything. The purpose is for everyone who might be interested, not just pilots, to learn some, if not all of the aspects that need to be considered in such an endeavor. I am the first one to admit that I don't have many of the answers but I am interested enough, in my spare time, to become more knowledgable than before.

As for egos, I think the only ones who have demonstrated they have an ego are the ones that are quick to attempt to belittle the effort.

Hey, I am a pilot first, foremost and always. If I am clueless then at least I am willing to learn. I am sure that there are many of you who know about airline operations. If we didn't have that resource then we could not even attempt such a discussion. I am sure that you and others will point out where we have flaws in our thinking. I do find it humorous that you think it is necessary to not offend Publishers as a poster on this thread. It implies that the rest of "you guys" are crack pots. If you have something to post that is helpful then I encourage you to do so. I am sure you do....you live and work in this environment daily.

Publishers,

We are brainstorming here. We have not put anything ahead of anything else. We know that we must work on the aircraft and route structure before we can put our people management program in place. What one of the founder's wives thinks about fa training won't fly here in the end. As for the pilot flight times everything is negotiable. 6000 hours of PIC time is no big deal. The 1000 in type might be a little tough depending on the pilots on the market.

 

[TonyC]

No AGENDA?!?!

We aren't trying to "prove" anything.

The purpose is for everyone ... to learn ...

We have not put anything ahead of anything else.

This is patently disingenuous. You started this thread when you got flamed for your anti-union vitriol on another thread that you then abandoned.

You HAVE put some things ahead of others. Your fundamental premise remains that pilots should be rewarded based upon merit, seniority has no place in your airline, and organized labor is out of the question. You refer to pilots as ASSOCIATES, for Pete's sake.

If you want to remain objective... what am I saying?!? If you want to BEGIN by being objective, then you might get some serious input. Until then, expect participation from anti-union sympathizers, and flames from pilots who realize the reality of the industry.

(NOTE to other posters: I realize many serious posts with thoughtful input have been offered by labor supporters - - please don't take the above comment as a smear on your character. I am only trying to point out that an anti-labor premise is not an invitation to objective discussion where we do not "put anything ahead of anything else. ")

 

[bobbysamd]

A flight school of our own

I have reviewed Bobby's mentoring system and find it way out of line with our projections. We simply cannot bear the cost of this program nor will we do any intial aircraft training in the first year.

Go back several posts, Pub. I wasn't talking about establishing our own school the first year, or even during the second, third, fourth or fifth years. I am talking about establishing it eventually.

Right now we are a start-up operation. We have to begin with experienced pilots. We also have to establish the culture we want now and bring in people who fit our culture. (Sorry to sound so Don Burr.)

I am as pro-union as anyone, but to the extent that it ensures that management treats employees fairly. By exceeding our employees' expectations, we won't have to worry about unions. By setting up our own flight academy, we choose the people who best fit in with our culture, who want to be treated well and be loyal, and treat them our way. The European and Asian pilot training model works.

 

[TonyC]

Re: Mentoring

That is why we will pull line pilots off the line for periodic duty as flight instructors and TAC officers in our flight academy. Assignment to our school will be plum duty. Pilots will keep their seniority numbers and guarantees. They would have to move to our school's domicile, but we would make it worth it by paying their moves and providing a primary residence maintenance allowance. Also assistance is finding schools for their kids and employment for spouses.

I have several objections to such a scheme.

In the first place, not every line pilot is qualified (other than in the technical sense of holding an ATP) to instruct. You know that there are a number of personality traits, whether inherent or developed, that are required to be an effective instructor. One of the most important traits is a desire to teach. Absent the desire, there's not a price big enough to pay a man to MAKE him be a good instructor. Forcing someone to teach can only breed resentment, and such resentment will bleed out and trickle down until it spreads throughout the crew force like a cancer. Volunteers only.

Secondly, forcing a pilot to live in domicile rather than commute will also breed discontent. Although I personally would prefer to live in domicile, I am familiar with many pilots who are more than willing to sacrifice extra days of their months and dollars out of their pocket to live where they want to live. Imposing a domicile requirement will reduce the list of volunteers.

Third, pay for a move never pays for a move. There's just not enough money to compensate for the real cost to a family for uprooting and displacing not just their household goods, but their entire lifestyle. Social ties cannot be replaced with money. Daily routines cannot be restored with dollars. Money will not take the place of friends left behind. We've all moved, and we all understand the realities of moving. But when it boils down to what's best for you, and your family, and your career, a forced move is a forced move, and money cannot restore everything.

Now, offering an attractive monetary incentive package for VOLUNTEERS is one thing, and is in fact the responsibility of a good employer. But let's not be so naive to think that money is going to "make it worth it" for a family that simply does not want to move. As for a "primary residence maintenance allowance" - - well, same as above.

Fourth, offering to help find schools for kids and employment for spouses smacks of "big brother"ism. I am quite capable of using the Yellow Pages, the Chamber of Commerce, and the Internet to locate schools in the area on my own, thank you. Although I would consider it a nice gesture, I certainly wouldn't consider it a factor in deciding to move. To suggest that someone might need help in that area, and to further suggest that such a gesture would be part of the "make it worth your while" package for moving seems to me to be a form of "talking down" to the potential instructor.

The last element of the package - - "assistance i[n] finding ... employment for spouses.... " is offensive to many. It assumes that the spouse is a subserviant portable device that can be plugged into the local economy in some sort of employment capacity at the whims of the airline and the pilot. Perhaps the spouse has the primary income for the family. Perhaps she/he is a high level executive in a major metropolitan area taking in a six-figure income. Is this airline going to guarantee a smooth transition to the same or higher income in a comparable position near the training academy? Perhaps the spouse is a volunteer in the local school system, or local non-profit, where she/he serves in a key role. Will the airline restore the non-profit that is left without the spouse volunteer, and then insure that an equally meaningful position will magically open for the spouse? The attitude that the airline can make everything alright after a move by sticking the spouse in a job is demeaning to the spouse, and it makes for very unpleasant kitchen table conversations. Unhappy spouse makes for an unhappy instructor.

SO, what do you think about volunteer instructors, who can commute if they so desire?

 

[Astra Guy]

Tony C,

I am not disingenous in any way. I have no dog in this race, which I have stated on the other thread. I am not a management type by nature. I am interested in learning. I do come from a different environment where the value of the contributions of each "associate" is measurable. I am sorry if you take offense to the term.

As both you and I know the industry is changing. The expectations for the pups coming up won't see the same level of rewards that have been more or less standard some years ago. The whole industry is very complex. Union or non union, seniority or lack thereof, are just a few of the issues.

I fully realize that I or no one other individual is going to change the industry. Why do some feel so threatened by what I have posted? My ideas are just one individual's ideas. They will have no impact on your career or anyone else's that are in the industry.

As for putting the cart before the horse I can assure you that in most startup businesses that there is a lot of brainstorming that may or may not happen in a logical order. Publishers and bart have indicated some support in getting things together. I value their input and appreciate the bona fide ideas that folks from all sides of the fence bring forth.

As for the other thread I didn't delete it, I just left because my inability to express my core ideas reaped non productive replies. There has been a few others that continue to talk on that thread and I for one, think that communicating, in a meaningful way, is valuable.

Your and my backgrounds and ideas are different. I won't attack your ideas, whether they are flames or meaningful input. It is just not my style.

 

[Astra Guy]

TonyC,

I am in agreement with you on the moving business. I am also in agreement that the instructors need to have the desire to teach. Being forced into the teaching situation would be counter productive. However, I do believe that most pilots would look forward to an opportunity to be a mentor. Most of us like to express our experiences and our ideas in some way. It might not be for everyone but that question would be asked during the interview process. Those that expressed the desire to do this would be given the opportunity. Those that didn't respond positively to the question would not be burdened with it.

Back to the moving business. Most of us have moved over the years to follow the job. Moving does create hardships that money can't fix. In an ideal world people should be able to live where they want and still do the job they love. Domicile considerations would be a major factor in anyone accepting a job in this industry.

I think bobbysamd was talking about the pups that may be interested in moving and living in a domicile where they can start their professional life in the industry.