Let's pressure ALPA to NOT sign MESA TA

[Beantown]

You guys are so worried about him shutting down mesa and growing freedom. HE CANT!!! He doesnt have the resorces, airplanes or crews.

I respectfully disagree. This is his plan "A".

First thing he will do if the TA is turned down is stall stall stall! He knows with the current environment, 3 of 4 code share partners in BIG trouble (a Mesa strike may force Ch 7 for two of them) and Bush in the white house, the NMB will not allow a strike anytime soon.

While stalling on the negotiations he will start transferring the CRJ 200's to Freedumb to go along with the 700/900's. He will offer jobs to the Mesa pilots flying those planes at Freedumb. This time around more will take him up on it seeing the end result and not wanting to be on the street in this environment. For those who won't go they will be furloughed while he hire's off the street. The fact is, even with all of ALPA's support, he was filling all his Freedumb classes no problem. This can all be done by the fall.

He has a couple choices with the Erjs. He says that he has a deal with Segial to lease the Erjs to U to be used IMMEDIATELY at the WO and possibility MDA. This wouldn't happen overnight but slowly enough to allow training at the WO's. Could be completed by the Fall also. (there are only 32 Erjs or a little more then 10 a peace. Training would be not problem. I am sure the WO pilots on this board would love to see this happen and is one of the reasons they have no creditability in this debate.)

He will sell Air Midwest.

If you look at this scenario, he COULD easily dismantle Mesa by the beginning of next year and b/c the NMB won't let Mesa strike to prevent this, turning down this TA is job suicide! This is NOT a hypothetical scenario. This is what ALPA and the Mesa MEC have been told and is WHY this TA is out for a vote. Remember this isn't 2000 when taking a risk (striking) and losing would mean being on the street a month or two b/c there are thousands of other jobs out there. I don't want to take anything away from the pilots at Comair but if Delta had shut them down, there were jobs awaiting them. The pilots at Mesa don't have that as a plan "B". -Bean

Guys....Guys.....Guys,I doubt a 8000+ hr. pilot would be working for Fredumb,they are mostly low time idiots that don't know any better

Actually, most Freedumb pilots are furloughed U and UAL pilots with over 10,000 hrs mixed in with 300hr Mesa pilot development kids.

 

[MONKEY]

The real reason that there would be no strike, is that the majors that MESA works for would never allow it. JO would have to bow down and meet your demands or the flying would be given to another carrier (maybe CHQ). Not another of JO wonderful creations. At a time like this when the majors count on their feeders for their life blood, there is no way a major would let JO let you strike. He would have to agree to a better contract. Look at SkyWest, they are not union and have been given a much better contract than what you are getting. They have not had to fight for it. They are just being payed what is fair. If you think that you are not worth as much as an SkyWest, Comair, ASA, Xjet pilot, then you are right. Why, because you value yourself less than they do. You should be at least up to industry average. If not, you are substandard. Take a look at yourself. Are you worth more? If yes, fight for more. If no, get rid of you ky avitar, quit complaining about what JO is doing to you, you are allowing it. You guys sound like a bunch of women who suffer from spousal abuse. You've been beeten so much and told so often that you are worthless and can be replaced so easily and that you can't live without JO, YOU ALL BELIEVE IT. I guess there is nothing that can be done to convince you otherwise.

ps sorry for the spelling I don't have spell check or the time to hunt for one. these guys who think that they are worthless have just got me a little worked up and I had to post.

 

[sgu]

My letter has been sent to Capt Woerth. Say NO to Mesa TA!!!

 

[Captain X]

If that TA gets voted in, MESA jumpseaters may find a lot of flights "weight restricted"

With Johnny O having a "new" contract with UAL, you guys have a lot more leverage than you think. And he ain't gonna get Freedoomed spooled up fast enough.

Stand your ground and fight the good fight.

 

[davessn763]

Jumpseat? WTF?

There is a CA at CAL who is a total as* that uses his jumpseat authority to piss off XJT pilots. I would be very angry If I saw that kind of lack of professionalism at XJT.

If a MESA pilot does get on your jumpseat, hand him and ALPA pin, find out his standing and educate him how you feel about the issue.

Pissing off Small Jet pilots and making there life harder will do nothing to help anyone.

 

[jetdriven]

AKA Jetdriven would like this TA to pass, because if it does he gets to fly the 700. My opinion of him is "oh well JO is giving us the screw job, but who cares I get to fly the 700." It has nothing to do with MESA going away and has everything to do with getting to fly the 700.

you are way off. I could care less about the 700/900. The payscales are the same on all 3 plus the ERJ and I am so junior the ERJ is the only place I could go. remember I am a 1900 pilot.

with regards to the contract I suggest you look around. EVERY MAJOR except JBLU and SWA has either filed bankruptcy or is near it. For those of you who think regionals exist in a vacuum you should understand what is happening around us. the major airlines, most recently UAL is now refusing to reaffirm their regionals' contracts, because of their inability to pay for them .You are about to see the "trickle down effect" of lower wages being caused by the major airlines refusal to pay such a premium for the feed service.
The only difference is ours is in the TA and ASA, SKYW, and AirWis are coming.
Mesa didnt casue it and no-one can stop it.

JO's plan A is to lease the MESA jets to midatlantic and continue to shift assets and flying to Freedom. AMW would be sold or shut down.
The economic environment has only worsened with no bottom in sight so I doubt we could get JO to commit to this TA much less get more.

 

[altimaklr]

Like American Eagle's contract (I'm sure there were all sorts of rationalizations for that one too), five years we'll all look back at the MESA contract and wonder what their pilots were thinking...

 

[Beechnut]

For those of you who think regionals exist in a vacuum you should understand what is happening around us. the major airlines, most recently UAL is now refusing to reaffirm their regionals' contracts, because of their inability to pay for them .You are about to see the "trickle down effect" of lower wages being caused by the major airlines refusal to pay such a premium for the feed service.

You won't find the three respectable UAX carriers rolling over to management and accept a Mesa like wage scale and work rules. 8 days off on reserve? You gotta be kidding me. Your new TA has a lower wage in the 700 than we do in the 200? You're looking like a bunch of cowards that hide behind JO's threats. In fact, the threat of JO closing Mesa is the best thing that happened to the Mesa pilots. Now you have a terrific excuse to let your balls whither away and take the deal. You boys had better start convincing each other this is a bad deal and not to roll over for JO. You start flying jets for UAX (and you will) with that new TA, you'll find many many of your ALPA "brothers" at the other UAX carriers finding it hard to be nice to you guys. I don't care what Wayne signs off on.

I can't speak for SkyWest, but I have to think they'll be ticked too when (if) they have to start taking concessions on their agreement. Again, I can't speak for ACA either, but I won't be surprised when AirWis comes to us looking for a little relief from the contract. I think if it's something we need to do, so be it. But if they offer a deal ANYTHING like Mesa's new and improved TA, FORGET IT.

I always thought Mesa was a second rate operation with a weak weak pilot group that has never contributed to the industry.

Show me I'm wrong.

S.

 

[surplus1]

BoredToDeath, et al Part 1 of 2

Answering you requires an Epistle (something I was trying to avoid). Here it comes, in two Parts.

First and foremost I am not a MESA pilot. I can't presume to judge the MESA pilots or tell them what is best for them and what they should do or not do. I have not read their TA in its entirety and all that I really know about it has been gleaned from assorted posts on this and other forums, made by people that I do not know and, with information that I have no way to verify.

From what I've "heard/read" it appears that their TA is a major setback in the compensation package. It is quite possible that, if approved, it will indeed put more pressure on the rest of us to "lower the bar". The bottom line is that, with the information available to me, I can't make an intelligent decision.

The decision they have to make is a difficult one. It should not be an emotional decision. This is a business decision, and I can't presume to make if for them. All that I can really or properly do is encourage the MESA pilots to study the TA in detail, consider ALL of its consequences, carefully review their options and then, vote their conscience.

Surplus,
You confuse me somtimes. To me, and I could be wrong, but to me it seems like your always saying how much the pilots need to stand up for what they belive to be right and do something. And in your above post its seems like your telling people not to waste their time writting Worth.

I'm sorry that you find my comment confusing. It is often difficult to be clear and precise in this medium, particularly when the issue is complex. Yes, I do believe that we pilots need to stand up for what we believe to be right and do something. However, in this case, I do not believe that writing letters to the President of ALPA will in any way affect his decision to sign or not sign this particular TA. I also don't believe that Hari Kari (on the part of MESA pilots) is a practical means of protest. I will try to clarify why I think that way later on..

What gives? I would think that you of all people would support the pilots who are willing to not just stand idle, but who are at the very least doing something and getting involved.

I do support the pilots who are willing to not just stand idle. How we go about not "standing idle" and "getting involved" is just as important as the involvement itself. In my opinion, those of us that oppose ratification of this TA and would like to see it defeated will not achieve that goal by writing to the President of the ALPA. It is not Duane Woerth that we need to convince, it is the MESA pilots..

If I had to guess, my guess would be that Mr. Woerth is very much aware of the content of this TA and will not find it to be in conflict with the ALPA agenda. On the contrary, I believe he will find that it satisfies two (2) priority components of that agenda. Therefore, if the MESA pilots ratify the TA, he will be more than happy to sign it, no matter how many letters we may write. I further believe that he, and the organization he heads, will do everything possible to convince the MESA pilots that this TA should be ratified. I would not even doubt that MESA MEC was repeatedly "warned" of the dire consequences that would befall them, coupled with potential loss of ALPA's "support", if they don't ratify this TA. Unless you have experienced ALPA national's negotiating strategy with regional carriers, it's hard to understand that.

Perhaps you and I have different ideas as to what ALPA's agenda really is. That would explain why you find my comment "confusing".

If we're going to try to change ALPA, would'nt you think it would be best to try from the inside out? Even if these voices fall on deaf ears at least they'll fall. Eventually who ever they fall on is gonna get hurt. It just so happens that things only seem to change when someone gets hurt, right?

Can we change the ALPA from the inside out? I truly wish we could, but the time for that may well have passed. My own pilot group has been trying to do that for at least 10 years. Based on the results to date, that effort has failed and failed miserably. As I'm sure you know, we are pursuing the only other option available to us, i.e., a court of law. If we were not doing that, there is little doubt in my mind that we would already be facing our own version of "Jets for Jobs".

Every large organization like ALPA has an agenda. On that agenda, there are many items. There are also priorities, set by those that control the organization. Rank&File said (in his opening post)

MESA'S TA, if approved, WILL LOWER THE BAR FOR ALL SMALL JET CARRIERS OUT THERE.

That may well prove to be an accurate assumption. In my opinion, even if it is accurate, the compensation packages of regional pilot groups are not now anywhere near the top priority on the ALPA's agenda and have never been. Maybe it is time that regional pilots recognize that reality.If this TA does lower the bar for all regional carriers, to put it bluntly, ALPA doesn't care! Why? Because what this TA will accomplish has a much higher priority on the overall agenda particularly at this point in time, and secondly, they're way too busy worrying about mainline compensation.

ALPA's rhetoric is not important. What we must observe, remember and focus upon are ALPA's actions. This TA will accomplish the satisfactory implementation of ALPA's Jets for Jobs protocol. This TA will ensure that furloughed mainline pilots gain access to at least 50% of the CL900 and CL700 positions and all other new vacancies that may result at MESA and the other carriers forced to accept the protocol. Jets for Jobs is far more important to the ALPA than your or my compensation package. The fact that I, and perhaps you, don't like that is irrelevant to ALPA.

ALPA has attempted to Scope those two aircraft types (CL900/700) out of existence at regional carriers or transfer them to the "mainline". That effort has been less than successful, but nevertheless ALPA has not given up on that agenda item. Perhaps they can't get all of what they want, but getting most of what they want is far better than getting none. This TA may not give MESA pilots much, but it gives ALPA just about everything it wanted.

Is ALPA against the creation of alter egos? Well, that is what they would have you believe. However, ALPA's record shows that is not the case. Remember again, "actions speak louder than words." ALPA is only against those alter egos that it does not control. ALPA cries foul at the creation of Freedom. At the same time, ALPA itself has created Mid Atlantic (no less an alter ego), at the expense of USAir Group's regional pilots. ALPA's official silence re the creation of Republic on the Chautauqua pilots' property is conspicuous and speaks volumes.

Mid Atlantic will be under ALPA's control and its cockpits staffed by mainline pilots. The MESA TA will place Freedom under ALPA's control and at lest 1/2 of its cockpits will be staffed by mainline pilots. All of Republic's cockpits will be staffed with mainline pilots and it should soon come under ALPA's control. Conclusion: ALPA's agenda to prevent or minimize the operation of regional jets with more than 50 seats by anyone other than mainline pilots will be satisfied by each of these "events".

Additionally, the imposition of Jets for Jobs on the MESA pilots will undoubtedly force the one remaining holdout carrier (TSA) to accept the J4J protocol. At that point ALPA's "victory" on this type of issue will be complete. Do not forget that the President of ALPA has repeatedly stated, in public, that regional carriers should NOT be allowed to fly jets with more than 50-seats. He has never rescinded that statement. That is part of ALPA's agenda and it is Woerth's policy. Do you really expect that he will refuse to sign a contract that helps him to realize that objective? Do you believe that the compensation packages of regional pilot groups are really more important to ALPA than who flys the "large small jets"? Please - Think again.

Remember this too. ALPA has not hesitated, whenever it suits its agenda, to use the careers and future of its regional pilot members as bargaining chips in achieving the objectives of its mainline pilot membership. ALPA has given NO indication of any intent to change that course of action.

Continued in Part 2

 

[surplus1]

BoredToDeath, et al - Part 2 of 2

Does ALPA oppose the efforts of the APA to transfer the Eagle pilot's jets to American's pilots? If so, why hasn't ALPA said so? Is it really because the Eagle pilots themselves want to give their jobs to the APA in exchange for a meaningless number on an imaginary single list? A number that would furlough most of the Eagle pilots in the next round of cuts at AA?

The COEX pilots have long wanted "one list" with CAL pilots. When ALPA absorbed the IACP, did it take a position in support of that concept? Or, did ALPA instead create a "single MEC" that virtually guarantees that CAL pilots will legally have the final say on all issues that affect both groups, thereby frustrating that "movement" and effectively placing it on the back burner? Was it really a coincidence or was it a part of the "agenda"?

Perhaps all of the evidence is circumstantial but it's pretty convincing to me. For the last 15 years plus, ALPA's national leaders have taken full advantage of the naivete of relatively "new" regional members and their passionate desire to "fly for a major". "WE" have been used and used well. It's time we get the big picture. This controversial TA may not do much for MESA pilots and yes, it will probably put intense concessionary pressure on the handful of regional carriers with the "better" contracts. However, it will do nothing but advance ALPA's agenda priorities. If ratified, the ALPA President will sign it. That is why I said that the TA does not conflict with ALPA's agenda.

Again, if you feel that MESA's pilots should not ratify this agreement, then you must convince MESA pilots. They and they alone will determine the outcome.

Call a MESA pilot and ask him to listen to your views. Create a network any way that you can, one that will allow direct contact with as many MESA pilots as possible. Write about it and appeal to MESA pilots. Calling them "whores" or sell-outs or any other derogatory remark is counter-productive and may cause them to do the opposite of what you would like. Writing to Woerth is a waste of time. If you want the support of the MESA pilots, then don't alienate them, persuade them and convince them. You'll catch more flies with honey than you will with a swatter. The only thing you'll get by writing to Woerth is writer's cramp. You didn't elect him and, like it or not, he doesn't represent your interests until all other interests have first been satisfied. Right now, who carries guns in the cockpit has a higher priority on ALPA's agenda than do the problems of regional pilot contracts. I'm sure that's not what you want to hear but reality is not always pleasant. Smell the coffee.

As for changing ALPA internally, efforts to do so have apparently been exhausted. Many of us b!tch about it, but few of us do more than whine. Whining and calling MESA pilots names is not the same as standing up for what you believe. The only way that ALPA will ever represent the interests of regional pilots fairly, when those interests conflict with the interests of mainline pilots, is if ALPA is directed to do so by a court of law. Otherwise, that too is a pipe dream -- just like the idea that Woerth won't sign.

For all these reasons, I think that a letter-writing campaign to the President of ALPA will be as ineffective as the picketing of ALPA by Allegheny pilots = zero effect.

 

[dickie q]

You guys crack me up, do ya'll stand around saluting yourselves or what.
I can't understand how anyone can argue for or against our TA when you haven't read it in it's entirety. Your arguments are based on rumor and speculation.......pathetic.

 

[dickie q]

Hasn't Freedom Airlines illustrated the importance of scope to you RJ Defense Coalition idiots yet?

BTW, if CMR had our TA's scope, they would be merged with Delta

 

[surplus1]

Hasn't Freedom Airlines illustrated the importance of scope to you RJ Defense Coalition idiots yet?

Nope. What it has confirmed is what we've always know, ALPA made it happen because of bad Scope. Now ALPA will make you pay the price and give half your jobs to mainline at the same time. The real probem is that you don't seem to get it.

BTW, if CMR had our TA's scope, they would be merged with Delta

Does that somehow translate to "a good thing" in your mind?

 

[dickie q]

So, having two seperate employee groups IS good in your mind??

And please don't comment about Jets-For-Jobs if you are unfamiliar with it.

 

[big dog1]

This may be of the piont , but the union and DW are a joke!!! they told the San Juaner's (MAPD) to stand strong and not to go to Freedum But under the new TA all the scum bags that went with 300 hours screwed everyone that listen DW. Its all a big joke nothing will happen to any of the Freedum scum they will get to stay on the 700's will other people on the 1900's will stuck untill they can hold jet capt

 

[Uncle Don]

VOTE NO for the sake of the industry!!!

Let me tell you MESA pilots a story...

Once upon a time, (1997) there were several airlines their names were Simmons, Flagship, Executive, and Wings West, none of which had jets. Four seperate companies that wanted job stability and security, and wanted to fly new planes.

But, there was a big bad witch that lived in East Texas....her name was AMR. AMR wanted to make lots of money, but she needed the help of the pilots at these airlines. So the witch said, "I will make you a one list airline, and make you guys the only feed to my empire, all you need to do is sign this 'great' new contract and you can have ONE AIRLINE, fly NEW SHINEY JETS and even a FLOWTHROUGH. The airlines that sign this contract will grow and get new jets the ones that don't will never grow and fade away."

Now, all the greedy pilots decided that "THEIR FUTURE DEPENDS ON SIGNING THIS CONTRACT." So, after some debate they knew that signing this contract would be for the "better". After all, the FOUR airlines would have:

1)ONE LIST 2)ONE FEED 3)New jets and 4)a FLOWTHROUGH

Well to make a very long story short.... The witch stabed the pilots in their back 2 years after signing the contract and even with SCOPE, started to outsource their work and tear the airline apart.

Now, as of today there are:

1)4 lists 2) 5 feeds 3)Jets being transfered to other airlines and 4) maybe 150 guys tops that flowed through.

No one lived happy everafter, except for the witch, because she now has the abitily AGAIN to outsource cheap labor.

MESA PILOTS..........PLEASE VOTE DOWN YOUR TA........DON"T SELL OUT!!!

>>>MORE IMPORTANTLY DON'T SELL YOURSELVES SHORT<<<<

YOU CAN DO BETTER....SCOPE IS NEVER WATER TIGHT OR MANAGMENT WOULD NOT HAVE AGREED TO IT ASK aal, ual, dal, or egl!!!

AAL had the MOST RESTRICTIVE SCOPE in the industy, but keep in mind that reverse code sharing can elimate SCOPE. AMERICAN AIRLINE's now feeds TSA and CHQ in STL. Amazing, a 757 feeding a J41.... go firgure?? Also now there are 2 Eagles and 3 alter-Eagles???

Everyone else, you can help stop this RACE FOR THE BOTTOM...
E-Mail Dwayne Worth [email protected] and tell him what you think. We must stop this now, ALPA did not help Eagle because they were regional and not important, and look what is happening now.

Here is a form letter someone wrote and gave everyone permission to use:

Dear Capt. Woerth,

I am a pilot for xyz airlines and have concerns over the Mesa Airlines tentative agreement. This TA will give management at my airline fuel to ask for wages and work rules similar to what they have proposed. We cannot allow any airline management to lower the bar in our section of the industry where pay and work rules, in many cases, are already substandard. I urge you to strongly oppose this TA.

Fraternally,

Joe Pilot
XYZ Airlines
ALPA # 123456

P.S. ALPA ...WHO CARES ABOUT GUNS IN THE COCKPIT, MAKE THE DOOR SO THEY CANNOT GET IN AND SPEND SOMETIME STOPING THIS RACE...NO MARATHON FOR THE BOTTOM OF THE INDUSTRY!

 

[dickie q]

Re: VOTE NO for the sake of the industry!!!

I don't know how the langaue is written,

Well, if you don't know, then how can you argue for or against?



The bottom line is that Mesa too has merged lists also. Remember Florida Gulf, Crown, Liberty, Air Midwest and Mountain West? We have learned our lesson. We are EXPERTS in regards to whipsaw tactics. Please don't judge what you know nothing about.

Again, if Eagle had the same scope clause as is in our TA, there would be only one list for ALL of AMR

 

[jetflyer]

VOTE NO!!!

 

[surplus1]

So, having two seperate employee groups IS good in your mind??

In the context that you used it, the answer is YES.

And please don't comment about Jets-For-Jobs if you are unfamiliar with it.

I'm not "unfamiliar" with that at all. I wouldn't call it jets for jobs. I would call it Grand Theft Seniority, or Grand Theft Contract, or Grand Theft Jobs.

PS. I don't drink Kool Aid. The ALPA wolf in sheep's clothing is still a wolf.

"If you make yourselves sheep, the wolves will eat you."
- Benjamin Franklin-

 

[dickie q]

Please explain, in your mind, how it is that having two or more pilot groups doing flying for "Delta", is good. I am anxious to be "educated".

And judging by your response to the "Jets-For-Jobs" senario, you are completely unfamiliar with it's implementation. Unless of course you think that Mesa is somehow "entitled" to jet flying for AAA.