Let's hear from the old schoolers

[AngelKing]

Participate all you will, but by all means, do so in a constructive, professional manner. You needn't be chuck yeager, but then being chuck yeager isn't exactly a positive thing, either. Be yourself, and stick with the thread by contributing something germain to the thread. That alone will serve to improve the quality of posting here, and that will have to be enough.

The Russian and I have become "penpals" if you will. Have never met and would still like to when the paths cross.

Avbug, I have to humbly admit, the more I read your post, the more I enjoy reading your style and quality of writing. I know I have made some post in the past that were slanted against you, and for that I apologize.

A lot of the younger pilots and indeed the older ones(myself) can learn a lot from your experience if they choose to open their eyes long enough to read.

This all my ego will allow me to say on the matter at this time.


AK

 

[Princedietrich]

Here's a pair of interesting episodes from the brief saga known as "PrinceDietrich in the 727, or What the hell do all these lights mean anyway?"

One sunny afternoon had us on a descent towards Cancun, Mexico. Being the engineer, it was my job to just sit there and keep my pie hole shut. As we descended through 10k, I flipped on the light in the cabin that says to the flight attendants "we're in sterile cockpit, so leave us alone." Sure enough, 10 seconds later the chime rings. Being below 10k, it was my duty to politely but annoyingly ignore it. I could hear over the intercom in my headset as the FAs in the back talked to eachother.

"Hey make sure Prince (not my real name of course) knows to turn the AC all the way down, it's hot down there."

"Ok, I'll tell him."

Um, hello? Ya think I don't know it's hot in Mexico in July? I got the sucker cranked all the way down to penguin heaven, which means it'll get down to 80 in the cabin.

Anyways, the PF was in the right seat so the captain has a few moments to expound some right-stuff wisdom on us youngins in the cockpit. He was a mid-50s Georgia good-ol-boy, complete with half cut glasses and white hair and southern drawl. He turns to the side so he can see the other two schleps in the cockpit with him.

"Yah know, Ah reeley hayte flahyin dayown theeis low too duh grayownd. Dis here is where bird strahkes cayun happun."

As if it were scripted and perfectly on cue..... SCHPLAT!!!! A big seagull gets introduced to the front of the plane, making a direct hit on the windscreen panel right behind the captain. It left a nice bloody, chunky and feathery smear up the middle of the window panel and very likely made a nice snack for the #2 engine. Scared the bajeebus out of me.


In another episode, we were on climbout from Baltimore on our way down to Nassau. The weather was not the greatest and a fairly good rain storm was brewing in the area. As we climbed through 8k, it was again my job to just sit there and keep my yap shut. I happened to look up and out the front windscreen at the precice moment that a bolt of lightning nailed us on the radome. A bright flash and a loud bang are two things you don't want to experience in an aircraft, and we just had both. For the next 2 or 3 seconds, the deckplates rumbled and vibrated as the lightning bolt traveled its way through the plane and came out the tailfeathers.

The captain, a North Carolina good-ol-boy with white hair but no glasses this time, turned to us and acted like it was the most natural thing in the world.

"Well boys, we jus got struck bah laahtnin."

I, on the other hand, had just discovered religion and decided that it was a pretty cool idea. For one thing, we were alive. For another thing, I didn't get a 9 light trip and a completely fried electrical system. I did, however, become infinitely grateful for the sheer brutish power of the sphincter muscle.

At 10k, I turned off the sterile cockpit light and counted to three. Right on time, there was a frantic knock of the door. I opened it and a completely freaked out flight attendant came in.

"OHMYGODTHEREWASABIGBANGANDTHEFLOORWASSHAKINGANDTHENOISEANDITWASSCARYANDOHMYGAWDWEALLGONNADIEAAAAAAAAAAAAA!"

I let the captain do the talking to calm her down, because if I'd opened my own mouth a stream of terrified gibberish like that would likely have erupted out of me too.

Two hours later we get down to Nassau thinking that we'll have a nice two or three day vacation, courtesy of the airline, because of the massive lightning damage done to the radome. We all had visions of a charred melted mess up there and were ready to break out the swimsuits and margarita shakers. We landed and the mechanic took a look at the nose, and all he found was a tiny pinhole sized dot where the bolt got us. He never did find the exit wound in the back of the plane. Needless to say, we were headed back to Baltimore an hour later.

 

[Midnight Flyer]

Prince,
which airline was that if you mind me asking?
I guess the good ole days of flying the tri holer with passengers is over for the most part.
The only pax airlines that still fly it is some of the charter airlines, like Champion.

 

[Princedietrich]

Prince,
which airline was that if you mind me asking?
I guess the good ole days of flying the tri holer with passengers is over for the most part.
The only pax airlines that still fly it is some of the charter airlines, like Champion.

It was Sunworld International, based out of CVG. I rode the panel there from Feb '01 to Oct '01 when I got furloughed. Very similar setup to Champion as it was primarily a 121 supplemental, but they also had a scheduled run to the Caymans and back every Saturday. Last I'd heard, the certificate still exists but the airline is defunct due to the last plane in the fleet being reposessed. I also picked up a couple of photos from airliners.net of the other plane (they only had 2) sitting at the end of "death row" at the Pinal Airpark boneyard.

 

[Publishers]

Now children, it is time for bed. Wash your faces and brush your teeth.
Mom and Dad want some quiet time.

 

[A Squared]

Ahhh, things hitting airplanes...

I remember my first lightning strike. It was my first summer in the right seat of the DC-6. We were lurching along through the clag, mostly stratus with occasional areas of uplift. We don't get the level of convective activity you get in the lower 48, but we do get some. We start getting a background noise in the audio, starts out as a low moan, rising in intensity and pitch to a whistling shriek. Captain looks over (no half moon glasses, sorry) and says cheerfully, "hey that's the noise you hear just before you get hit by lighting." I give him my best "yeah nice try" look and the noise kinda peaks then gradually dies out. Soon thereafter, the noise is back, rising to an even higher fever pitch. Captain says "here it comes....." I was just about to give him my best eye-roll, as if to say "if you didn't get me going the first time, what makes you think it'll work on a second try?" when KAAABAAAM, there was a blinding flash enveloping the nose of the airplane and a simultaneous explosion. It was like God hit you in the head with a hammer. OoooooooKaaay then, I guess there really is a correlation between that noise in the radios and lighting. I don't recall the sound of metal flexing as the lighting passed thru, but it could be because I was deaf for a while. We had one little pea-sized burn mark on the right nose-gear door, looked like someone struck an arc with a welder and the ADFs were dead. I'm up to about half a dozen lightning strikes now and that seems to be the most common damage, one or both ADFs goes T/U.

Birds.

It was on my line check with the FAA following IOE for the left seat of the '6. We were on 58 mile leg, so we were down low, leveled off in "cruise" at 3000'

The fed was, well, sort of a stereotypical fed*, not overly gifted, except in the officiousness and pompousness categories, but hey, he was our fed, and we loved him despite his faults. So we're tooling along, and all of a sudden there's a big thump. Our fed, I suppose in a misguided attempt to demonstrate how "in the loop" he was, immediately said "that sounded like #2" despite the fact that it really didn't sound like a backfire, there hadn't been any indication on the torquemeters, and he'd never actually flown the '6. I looked over my shoulder at him and opined that "it sounded like it came from the duck that made that", pointing at the big bloody smear on the windscreen. He was quiet after that.


*Not saying they're all like this JAFI, just saying that seems to be the stereotype.

 

[avbug]

The Russian and I have become "penpals" if you will. Have never met and would still like to when the paths cross.

In truth, I would probably sit down for a cold lemonade with little babushka too. She's provided many hours of entertainment, and I'm sure she's a real person with real ideas, dreams, thoughts, and contributions just like anyone else. It's just that on here she responds well to button pushing...there were days sitting in the sandbox when she and one or two others were the entertainment for the day...



On the lightening thing...a few months ago in a desert area we were operating in some light clouds at night, in dusty/sandy conditions. We began to get a lot of St. Elmo's around the aircraft, particularly around the external stores and over the fuel tanks. We had a brief discussion about it, and I heard that same rise in static. I was looking at a fuel tank when the St. Elmos changed from a pretty display to an intense static buildup, and then a discharge which was very loud, and intense enough I couldn't see anything at all.

I queried my cohort about his ability to see, and he advised he was blind too. I put my hand in front of my face, couldn't see it, turned on a light, couldn't see that. Shortly my vision returned. When we landed, holes were burned through control surfaces. We had burn marks in the radome, and melted holes and pitting all over the fuel cells, on the underwing pylons and stores, and burn marks down the side of the aircraft. All over the place. No avionics damage that I could tell, but the aircraft did start to experience phantom electrical problems that nobody seemed to be able to duplicate or trace, for several months to come. When I left the aircraft, they were still tearing their hair out trying to figure out the cause.

 

[Swass]

In truth, I would probably sit down for a cold lemonade with little babushka too. She's provided many hours of entertainment, and I'm sure she's a real person with real ideas, dreams, thoughts, and contributions just like anyone else. It's just that on here she responds well to button pushing...there were days sitting in the sandbox when she and one or two others were the entertainment for the day...



On the lightening thing...a few months ago in a desert area we were operating in some light clouds at night, in dusty/sandy conditions. We began to get a lot of St. Elmo's around the aircraft, particularly around the external stores and over the fuel tanks. We had a brief discussion about it, and I heard that same rise in static. I was looking at a fuel tank when the St. Elmos changed from a pretty display to an intense static buildup, and then a discharge which was very loud, and intense enough I couldn't see anything at all.

I queried my cohort about his ability to see, and he advised he was blind too. I put my hand in front of my face, couldn't see it, turned on a light, couldn't see that. Shortly my vision returned. When we landed, holes were burned through control surfaces. We had burn marks in the radome, and melted holes and pitting all over the fuel cells, on the underwing pylons and stores, and burn marks down the side of the aircraft. All over the place. No avionics damage that I could tell, but the aircraft did start to experience phantom electrical problems that nobody seemed to be able to duplicate or trace, for several months to come. When I left the aircraft, they were still tearing their hair out trying to figure out the cause.

Do you think it's possible to ignite JetA or 100LL with St Elmo's? Anyone ever heard of such a thing?

 

[Alamanach]

Do you think it's possible to ignite JetA or 100LL with St Elmo's? Anyone ever heard of such a thing?

It's possible to ignite aluminum-doped fabric with it, but that's another story.

 

[avbug]

Here's a link to a 1960 article on the subject: http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,894885,00.html

I don't believe there's ever been a case of lightening or a static discharge igniting Jet A, though there have been cases of lightening causing aircraft losses (and explosions) when fueled by Jet B (which is cut with gasoline, vs. purely kerosine).

So far as the danger itself; St. Elmo's can progress from a harmless display to a static discharge fairly quickly, and can certainly cause structural damage, though generally not to the degree of a lightening strike. A lightening strike, on the other hand, may cause damage ranging from a small burn hole going in and going out, to blown off radomes, blown out electrical panels, failed avionics, etc. A lightening strike has a higher potential to cause a fire or explosion.

St. Elmo's fire isn't actually fire, and nothing is burning. It's an electrostatic display which doesn't represent necessarily an increased temperature. In aircraft fueled with Jet A, the fuel tank generally contains a fuel/air mixture which is not conducive to a fire or explosion, especially from static discharges. This is a different matter with cut fuels such as Jet B or JP4. 100LL would be much more likely to ignite than Jet A.

I made a flight one night during a period of electrical activity, in a Seneca II. While I've seen St. Elmo's at higher altitudes often, I've not seen it often in light GA type aircraft. In this case, around eight or nine thousand feet, the propellers glowed blue green, and purplish and yellowish sparks spayed off the fuel caps, and other plastic non-conductive surfaces, including the windshield. Sparks danced around insidethe cockpit and across the windscreen. The propellers took on a neon caste, particularly around the tips, leaving two glowing circular arcs on either side of me. I quit looking outside and turned up the cockpit lights in case of a static discharge, but that didn't happen. It went away. My imagination certainly turned to the possibility of a fire or explosion with the active display of sparks spraying off the fuel caps, but nothing occured.

St. Elmos can signifiy ionization of the airflow around an aircraft, which can in turn form a pathway for lightening, or for a static discharge. With the presence of a discharge or lightening strike, the potential for a fire or explosion is escalated.

The USAF lost a C-130 and a KC-135 to lightning, as well as a F4 and a F16. Internationally a 707 was downed in 1963 and a 747 in 1976 as a result of the same, involving explosions or fires caused by the lightening. In each case, the aircraft was using a cut fuel.

There's never been a verified case of an explosion or fire in flight with Jet A, based on lightening or a static discharge. There have been many cases of engine flame-outs during such events, however, and other types of damage such as structural burns, blow-outs, melting, etc, do occur. I've had holes burned through flaps, elevators, and even propellers, and blow-outs in radomes (usually isolated to small semi-circular burns or blow-outs about a half inch to three quarters of an inche in diameter, in the shape of a thumb or crescent. I've also had melting on pitot tubes, stall/AoA vanes, etc.