Let's hear from the old schoolers

[A Squared]

Ahhh, things hitting airplanes...

I remember my first lightning strike. It was my first summer in the right seat of the DC-6. We were lurching along through the clag, mostly stratus with occasional areas of uplift. We don't get the level of convective activity you get in the lower 48, but we do get some. We start getting a background noise in the audio, starts out as a low moan, rising in intensity and pitch to a whistling shriek. Captain looks over (no half moon glasses, sorry) and says cheerfully, "hey that's the noise you hear just before you get hit by lighting." I give him my best "yeah nice try" look and the noise kinda peaks then gradually dies out. Soon thereafter, the noise is back, rising to an even higher fever pitch. Captain says "here it comes....." I was just about to give him my best eye-roll, as if to say "if you didn't get me going the first time, what makes you think it'll work on a second try?" when KAAABAAAM, there was a blinding flash enveloping the nose of the airplane and a simultaneous explosion. It was like God hit you in the head with a hammer. OoooooooKaaay then, I guess there really is a correlation between that noise in the radios and lighting. I don't recall the sound of metal flexing as the lighting passed thru, but it could be because I was deaf for a while. We had one little pea-sized burn mark on the right nose-gear door, looked like someone struck an arc with a welder and the ADFs were dead. I'm up to about half a dozen lightning strikes now and that seems to be the most common damage, one or both ADFs goes T/U.

Birds.

It was on my line check with the FAA following IOE for the left seat of the '6. We were on 58 mile leg, so we were down low, leveled off in "cruise" at 3000'

The fed was, well, sort of a stereotypical fed*, not overly gifted, except in the officiousness and pompousness categories, but hey, he was our fed, and we loved him despite his faults. So we're tooling along, and all of a sudden there's a big thump. Our fed, I suppose in a misguided attempt to demonstrate how "in the loop" he was, immediately said "that sounded like #2" despite the fact that it really didn't sound like a backfire, there hadn't been any indication on the torquemeters, and he'd never actually flown the '6. I looked over my shoulder at him and opined that "it sounded like it came from the duck that made that", pointing at the big bloody smear on the windscreen. He was quiet after that.


*Not saying they're all like this JAFI, just saying that seems to be the stereotype.

 

[avbug]

The Russian and I have become "penpals" if you will. Have never met and would still like to when the paths cross.

In truth, I would probably sit down for a cold lemonade with little babushka too. She's provided many hours of entertainment, and I'm sure she's a real person with real ideas, dreams, thoughts, and contributions just like anyone else. It's just that on here she responds well to button pushing...there were days sitting in the sandbox when she and one or two others were the entertainment for the day...



On the lightening thing...a few months ago in a desert area we were operating in some light clouds at night, in dusty/sandy conditions. We began to get a lot of St. Elmo's around the aircraft, particularly around the external stores and over the fuel tanks. We had a brief discussion about it, and I heard that same rise in static. I was looking at a fuel tank when the St. Elmos changed from a pretty display to an intense static buildup, and then a discharge which was very loud, and intense enough I couldn't see anything at all.

I queried my cohort about his ability to see, and he advised he was blind too. I put my hand in front of my face, couldn't see it, turned on a light, couldn't see that. Shortly my vision returned. When we landed, holes were burned through control surfaces. We had burn marks in the radome, and melted holes and pitting all over the fuel cells, on the underwing pylons and stores, and burn marks down the side of the aircraft. All over the place. No avionics damage that I could tell, but the aircraft did start to experience phantom electrical problems that nobody seemed to be able to duplicate or trace, for several months to come. When I left the aircraft, they were still tearing their hair out trying to figure out the cause.

 

[Swass]

In truth, I would probably sit down for a cold lemonade with little babushka too. She's provided many hours of entertainment, and I'm sure she's a real person with real ideas, dreams, thoughts, and contributions just like anyone else. It's just that on here she responds well to button pushing...there were days sitting in the sandbox when she and one or two others were the entertainment for the day...



On the lightening thing...a few months ago in a desert area we were operating in some light clouds at night, in dusty/sandy conditions. We began to get a lot of St. Elmo's around the aircraft, particularly around the external stores and over the fuel tanks. We had a brief discussion about it, and I heard that same rise in static. I was looking at a fuel tank when the St. Elmos changed from a pretty display to an intense static buildup, and then a discharge which was very loud, and intense enough I couldn't see anything at all.

I queried my cohort about his ability to see, and he advised he was blind too. I put my hand in front of my face, couldn't see it, turned on a light, couldn't see that. Shortly my vision returned. When we landed, holes were burned through control surfaces. We had burn marks in the radome, and melted holes and pitting all over the fuel cells, on the underwing pylons and stores, and burn marks down the side of the aircraft. All over the place. No avionics damage that I could tell, but the aircraft did start to experience phantom electrical problems that nobody seemed to be able to duplicate or trace, for several months to come. When I left the aircraft, they were still tearing their hair out trying to figure out the cause.

Do you think it's possible to ignite JetA or 100LL with St Elmo's? Anyone ever heard of such a thing?

 

[Alamanach]

Do you think it's possible to ignite JetA or 100LL with St Elmo's? Anyone ever heard of such a thing?

It's possible to ignite aluminum-doped fabric with it, but that's another story.

 

[avbug]

Here's a link to a 1960 article on the subject: http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,894885,00.html

I don't believe there's ever been a case of lightening or a static discharge igniting Jet A, though there have been cases of lightening causing aircraft losses (and explosions) when fueled by Jet B (which is cut with gasoline, vs. purely kerosine).

So far as the danger itself; St. Elmo's can progress from a harmless display to a static discharge fairly quickly, and can certainly cause structural damage, though generally not to the degree of a lightening strike. A lightening strike, on the other hand, may cause damage ranging from a small burn hole going in and going out, to blown off radomes, blown out electrical panels, failed avionics, etc. A lightening strike has a higher potential to cause a fire or explosion.

St. Elmo's fire isn't actually fire, and nothing is burning. It's an electrostatic display which doesn't represent necessarily an increased temperature. In aircraft fueled with Jet A, the fuel tank generally contains a fuel/air mixture which is not conducive to a fire or explosion, especially from static discharges. This is a different matter with cut fuels such as Jet B or JP4. 100LL would be much more likely to ignite than Jet A.

I made a flight one night during a period of electrical activity, in a Seneca II. While I've seen St. Elmo's at higher altitudes often, I've not seen it often in light GA type aircraft. In this case, around eight or nine thousand feet, the propellers glowed blue green, and purplish and yellowish sparks spayed off the fuel caps, and other plastic non-conductive surfaces, including the windshield. Sparks danced around insidethe cockpit and across the windscreen. The propellers took on a neon caste, particularly around the tips, leaving two glowing circular arcs on either side of me. I quit looking outside and turned up the cockpit lights in case of a static discharge, but that didn't happen. It went away. My imagination certainly turned to the possibility of a fire or explosion with the active display of sparks spraying off the fuel caps, but nothing occured.

St. Elmos can signifiy ionization of the airflow around an aircraft, which can in turn form a pathway for lightening, or for a static discharge. With the presence of a discharge or lightening strike, the potential for a fire or explosion is escalated.

The USAF lost a C-130 and a KC-135 to lightning, as well as a F4 and a F16. Internationally a 707 was downed in 1963 and a 747 in 1976 as a result of the same, involving explosions or fires caused by the lightening. In each case, the aircraft was using a cut fuel.

There's never been a verified case of an explosion or fire in flight with Jet A, based on lightening or a static discharge. There have been many cases of engine flame-outs during such events, however, and other types of damage such as structural burns, blow-outs, melting, etc, do occur. I've had holes burned through flaps, elevators, and even propellers, and blow-outs in radomes (usually isolated to small semi-circular burns or blow-outs about a half inch to three quarters of an inche in diameter, in the shape of a thumb or crescent. I've also had melting on pitot tubes, stall/AoA vanes, etc.

 

[JAFI]

The fed was, well, sort of a stereotypical fed*, not overly gifted, except in the officiousness and pompousness categories, but hey, he was our fed, and we loved him despite his faults. So we're tooling along, and all of a sudden there's a big thump. Our fed, I suppose in a misguided attempt to demonstrate how "in the loop" he was, immediately said "that sounded like #2" despite the fact that it really didn't sound like a backfire, there hadn't been any indication on the torquemeters, and he'd never actually flown the '6. I looked over my shoulder at him and opined that "it sounded like it came from the duck that made that", pointing at the big bloody smear on the windscreen. He was quiet after that.


*Not saying they're all like this JAFI, just saying that seems to be the stereotype.

From Webster Online:

Stereotype

Function: noun
Etymology: French stéréotype, from stéré- stere- + type
1 : a plate cast from a printing surface
2 : something conforming to a fixed or general pattern; especially : a standardized mental picture that is held in common by members of a group and that represents an oversimplified opinion, prejudiced attitude, or uncritical judgment


----- I repeat number 2:

a standardized mental picture that is held in common by members of a group and that represents an oversimplified opinion, prejudiced attitude


I think you used the correct word.

I always thought that stereotypes were used mostly by Hate Groups to justify their position when they had little else to promote their platform.


Just a thought……

JAFI

 

[avbug]

I worked as Director of Maintenance for an operaion in which the Chief Pilot was not only an absolute idiot, but absolutely incompetent. His flying was piss poor, his understanding of the regulation couldn't have been worse. He was a mechanic, with an inspection authorization, and I've seldom seen worse work. Several times company personnel got off the aircraft and refused to fly again unless it was with a different pilot, when he was flying. He was finally fired for two serious incidents in one day, one of which involved his selection of an altitude alerter setting a thousand feet below field elevation during a night approach at a rural mountain location; one of the non-pilot crewmembers caught him. He would have flown them into the ground. He falsified records, performed shoddy maintenance, even built a king air out of parts that was a real deathtrap. A repair station that hanldled King Air's commented that it was in the worst shape, and had the worst maintenance, of any aircraft that had come through their shop in 20 years.

The company for whom I worked fired him after the night approach incident, and he went to work for another operator, where he was also fired for a dangerous act one night that compromised a patient's life.

He's now an FAA inspector. Coming soon to a FSDO near you. He fits the stereotype to a tee...someone who couldn't make it in the private sector, who finally settles, like sediment, into a civil service position in the FAA, ironically overseeing others who in these cases fired him for incompetence.

You'll notice I said nothing about you, JAFI. You contribute a lot. But then you're not the stereotypical representative of the Administration.

I was called into a FSDO a few years ago to meet with the director there. I had called the FSDO earlier in the day to request something, and during the call, the secretary began to cry. She was having a bad day. The Director called me in, told me I was at faut for making one of his girls cry, and told me that enforcement action would be forthcoming unless I bought her flowers. I kid you not.

We can go on all day with examples like that, there are a lot of them. The FAA serves a vital purpose without any doubt, but let's make no mistake of what the steretypical FAA representative is or means to the flying public.

 

[JAFI]

Knowing some one who resembles a stereotype (or even the opposite to the stereotype) is not hard to do.

I think many of us can tell stories that support a stereotype and tell stories can go against the stereotype.

I know Inspectors that I feel should be fired on the spot, I know many more Inspectors that are a credit to the agency, I know pilots that should not even be allowed to operate a car much less an airplane, I know many more pilots that I will sleep in the back while they are flying.

My comment was about stereotypes. They are a poor way to judge a persons character.

IMHO using or promoting a stereotype speaks volumes about the character of the presenter.

Now if you have something specific about someone or something then address it, or check out this link:

http://www.faa.gov/about/office_org/headquarters_offices/avs/offices/afs/qms/

I have never said that the FAA is the greatest thing since sliced bread, but Does your company have something similar where others can comment about you or your company?

 

[Say Again Over]

Stereotype

Function: noun
Etymology: French stéréotype, from stéré- stere- + type
1 : a plate cast from a printing surface
2 : something conforming to a fixed or general pattern; especially : a standardized mental picture that is held in common by members of a group and that represents an oversimplified opinion, prejudiced attitude, or uncritical judgment


----- I repeat number 2:

a standardized mental picture that is held in common by members of a group and that represents an oversimplified opinion, prejudiced attitude

JAFI, don't take it personal, you're outnumbered. :nuts:

 

[A Squared]

From Webster Online:

Stereotype

Function: noun
Etymology: French stéréotype, from stéré- stere- + type
1 : a plate cast from a printing surface
2 : something conforming to a fixed or general pattern; especially : a standardized mental picture that is held in common by members of a group and that represents an oversimplified opinion, prejudiced attitude, or uncritical judgment


----- I repeat number 2:

a standardized mental picture that is held in common by members of a group and that represents an oversimplified opinion, prejudiced attitude


I think you used the correct word.

JAFI,

yes, I know what stereotype means, and that is precisely why I chose *that* particular word; to convey that partuicular meaning.

That said, stereotypes don't always just pop out of nowhere.

 

[avbug]

I have never said that the FAA is the greatest thing since sliced bread, but Does your company have something similar where others can comment about you or your company?

Yes, most companies do. You're probably familiar with the humorous complaint department desk piece; it's a dud hand grenade with a tag on the pin with the number #1 on it. On the plaque it says "Complaint Department: Take a Number."

The reason many things are funny is because they ring true. Complaining through official channels as often as not will come back to bite the complainer, and the same thing is true of the FAA.

I had a very unpleasant exprience with a maintenance inspector years ago. He'd had a few complaints against him. In fact, he'd been punched and knocked to the ground on three different occasions, because he pushed the persons with whom he associated so far. He'd been transferred from five different FSDO's, and was still spreading his poison...so far as I know, he still may be. After my encounter, which I didn't take lying down, he was transferred to a large state some distance from where my incident took place. Nearly a year after the incident occured, he called me at home at night and told me that he'd have let the incident drop, but that because I implicated him in my report (I quoted him), he was going to "nail you to the wall, and ruin your life." He made threats, he got nasty...and he stayed employed.

I know the routine...put it in writing so we can do something about it. The problem is that what usually happens when you lift a finger to right a wrong is that when the music stops, you're the only one left standing, and usually without a chair on which to sit.

Ask Bob Hoover about tangling with the FAA...with inspectors who were heard to state before his fateful performance, that they would find a way to "get" him. And they did. Millions of dollars and some six years later, he was right...but at what cost? See my example above about the flowers for the receptionist to see the FAA in action covering their own, even when their own are wrong. Sure, there's a complaint department. Take a number.

It's #1. Your choice.

 

[Princedietrich]

For the record, I can personally confirm at least three federales who are light years away from the stereotypical fed. All are consummate practical jokers: one enjoys using a lovely foul-smelling flatus simulation spray called "Morning Breeze," the second has been known to set off a remote controlled flatus machine in the middle of a packed-room staff meeting, and the third..... well, he prefers the real thing.

 

[Lead Sled]

One of my long-time friends is a former Alaskan Bush Pilot, carrier-based aircraft mechanic and aeronautical engineer. He has some serious health issues and lost his medical many years ago and is unable to work. We keep in touch on a very regular basis. Here is an excerpt from an e-mail that he sent me a while back. He is definately "old school" and in keeping with the spirit of the original post I share it with you for your reading enjoyment:

However as long as we are on the subject of airplanes! I have been following the Experimental category and especially the new Light Sport Plane category with great interest. This design would make an excellent candidate for the new light sport plane category. I saw an ad for a newly certified sport plane; it was a newly manufactured Luscombe 8A. The base model starts at only $90,000, how ridiculous is that? I remember back in 1980 these planes were advertised in Trade-a-Plane for $2,000 all the time. I had an 8A for a short while back in the day and although it was a bit spartan they were nice little airplanes although I didn’t care much for the heel brakes. I had talked to a couple of people who had owned one and they complained about how they were prone to ground looping but I really do not remember them being any worse than any other tail dragger.

I think if I were going to design and build a high wing cabin monoplane exclusively for the light sport plane category I would go with something similar to a scaled down Fairchild 24. I had one of these for a while and it was one of the nicest flying ships I have ever flown. I bought it from this guy who was a mechanic for a crop dusting outfit. I paid $2000 for it and even though it was out of license and needed a rebuild it still seemed pretty sound. It was a model F24-9W which meant it was built in 1939 and originally had a Warner Radial which someone switched to an inline Ranger. The airplane was together and flyable but the fabric failed the punch test and it was generally in very poor condition. Half the panel was missing and it had some serious electrical problems. The A& P that owned it had liberated a remanufactured Continental radial engine and then added his own home-made supercharger to it. He had taken off the Ranger engine and hung this Continental Radial in its place. I am just guessing but I imagine that with the supercharger that Continental was putting out 300 hp or more. The good news was that he still had the old Ranger engine and mount which he included in the deal. Obviously the Continental was way too big and heavy for this plane. He had added 50 lbs of lead to the tail but there was still no way to trim it out. As soon as you pulled the power back, the nose would want to head straight for the ground. I kid you not. The prop was so big that you could not wheel land it. It was a real pain in the neck to fly that way but I will have to admit it had plenty of power. I had thought about trying to shorten the engine mount and possibly get the CG back to something realistic, put on a slightly smaller 3 bladed prop and head back to Alaska but I finally decided it would be more trouble than it was worth. Now I realize that is what I should have done. Would a, could a, should a, it sure would have made a dynamite bush plane though.

The Fairchild was at this crop dusting field outside Fresno and as part of the deal this guy was supposed to ferry it down to Barstow where I was living at the time. Anyway after I bought it he changed his mind and would not deliver it down there. I had a friend who had a place with a big shop on some acreage that backed up to a dry lake bed. I decided the cheapest and easiest way to get it home was just to fly it myself. I couldn’t find anyone that had one so there was no chance for a check ride. When I showed up at the field to pick up the plane this guy handed me a clipboard with a bunch of hand scribbled notes about the idiosyncrasies of this particular plane in its present state. After I committed all the notes to memory and a very comprehensive pre-flight I was ready to go. My friend had driven me up in his pickup so we loaded all the spare parts including the old Ranger engine into the truck and my friend headed back home with it. I made one last check of everything and then climbed into the cabin. Once I was satisfied everything was as ready as it could be I primed the engine, flipped the mag switch to both and hit the starter button. There was no key lock just one of those mag switches with a built in starter button. I watched as the prop moved through an arc of about 30 degrees and then stopped. The battery had just died! I opened the door started to unbuckle my belt when this guy runs up and says no worries I’ll just prop it. Are you sure I asked that’s a big engine and prop. Yea no problem I do it all the time, he said. He runs around to the front of the plane and yells switches off. Switches off I yell back and he pulls it through a couple of time and then yells switches on and I echo back switches on. He backs up a few feet and then takes a run at this thing, grabs the prop, gives it a spin and she fires right up. A brief swirl of blue smoke and that radial settled right down I really love the sound of those old radials. I glanced down and scanned the remaining instruments, saw that the amp meter showed a positive charge and everything else seemed ok so I did a run up and the mag’s checked ok. Well the moment of truth, I taxied out and lined it up on the end of the field. One last check and I started feeding in the throttle, got the tail up only not too much because of that big prop and she lifted off gently after a short roll. I made a couple of laps around the pattern until I was reasonably sure she would make it home and then made a slow climbing turn and then steadied up on a course for Barstow. The trip went pretty smoothly except the friction lock on the throttle was worn out and needed constant attention. A couple of hours latter I put her down on that dry lake bed taxied up to the old barn shut her down and pushed her inside and that is the last time she flew with that Continental.

Anyway after I completely rebuilt it I put the overhauled ranger inline engine back in it and sold the Continental for enough to pay for the whole project. She was a really nice cross country airplane, I had the Ranger engine balanced and it ran very smooth and quiet, the plane even had roll up windows like a car. I made a lot of long cross country trips in that plane and I enjoyed every minute I was at the controls. Ah, how I long for the good old days when my projects actually worked out like they were supposed to. Oh well I guess it is time to go, kicking and screaming, back to reality.

 

[Lead Sled]

Ahhh, things hitting airplanes...

Several years ago we were departing Meacham Field in Fort Worth, Texas. It was evening and we were deadheading to Houston to pick up some passengers. Just prior to V1 something darted out in front of us and we hit it. We aborted the takeoff and taxied back to the ramp. The tower controller had someone take a truck out onto the runway to see if they could find out what we had struck. They found a 200 pound feral pig lying dead right on the runway center line! We were extremely lucky, an animal that size, if we had hit it dead on, would have easily taken out our nose or main gear. As it was, he was hit by our nosewheel chine and we suffered no other damage. I spoke with the tower controller and he mentioned that he had to fill out a special form for the FAA. He asked me to wait while he looked for it, but he couldn't find one so he simply took a "Bird Strike Report" and crossed out the word "Bird" and wrote “Pig” above it. I guess that I'm the only person to have ever filed an FAA Pig Strike Report.

LS

 

[Midnight Flyer]

Several years ago we were departing Meacham Field in Fort Worth, Texas. It was evening and we were deadheading to Houston to pick up some passengers. Just prior to V1 something darted out in front of us and we hit it. We aborted the takeoff and taxied back to the ramp. The tower controller had someone take a truck out onto the runway to see if they could find out what we had struck. They found a 200 pound feral pig lying dead right on the runway center line! We were extremely lucky, an animal that size, if we had hit it dead on, would have easily taken out our nose or main gear. As it was, he was hit by our nosewheel chine and we suffered no other damage. I spoke with the tower controller and he mentioned that he had to fill out a special form for the FAA. He asked me to wait while he looked for it, but he couldn't find one so he simply took a "Bird Strike Report" and crossed out the word "Bird" and wrote “Pig” above it. I guess that I'm the only person to have ever filed an FAA Pig Strike Report.
LS

Why kind of airplane were you in, lead sled.