Let the WitchHuny Begin: "Wall St STILL Flying Corp Jets"--AP

[brokeflyer]

ok here goes....

If there were no unions, would the company pay me what I am worth?

 

[cjdriver]

Little tidbit; Sen. Harkin, D-IA had his wife on board a GV that ran off the runway the other day. Upon further investigation, it turns out the GV was owned by Conoco-Phillips, and she is on the board there. Can someone explain to me why a Senator's wife from a corn state is on the board of an oil company? Is it her invaluable knowledge of the energy industry?
This explains why we will never get off the oil teet. The oil industry is buying influence in all the right places.

 

[Semore Butts]

B-19

Your Fired!

 

[B19 Flyer]

Your Fired!

Like you were out of the 737?

 

[B19 Flyer]

ok here goes....

If there were no unions, would the company pay me what I am worth?

The price of anything is what anybody is WILLING to pay for it, so you have to detirmine that for yourself.

A CBA is rarely negotiated by unions in good faith, it's normally negotiated by blackmail. It doesn't exactly fit into the phrase, because the company is not "willing" to pay for it, they are forced to by blackmail.

There are companies out there without unions where pilots are happy and satisfied about what they are getting paid without the nonsense a union brings. Unless you were flying for one of those companies, there is no way I could answer if the company is willing to pay you for what you are worth.

 

[PCL_128]

Blackmail? The laws are slanted in management's favor, not in the unions' favor. You have the most leverage, not the union. To try to claim that unions have some sort of power to blackmail you into giving them a good contract is patently absurd.

 

[brokeflyer]

The price of anything is what anybody is WILLING to pay for it, so you have to detirmine that for yourself.

A CBA is rarely negotiated by unions in good faith, it's normally negotiated by blackmail. It doesn't exactly fit into the phrase, because the company is not "willing" to pay for it, they are forced to by blackmail.

There are companies out there without unions where pilots are happy and satisfied about what they are getting paid without the nonsense a union brings. Unless you were flying for one of those companies, there is no way I could answer if the company is willing to pay you for what you are worth.

ok ill ask again since you did not understand the question.

Would the company pay me what I am worth if there was no union?

put another way, what would be YOUR offer for a first year FO at a company that was run by YOU?

And if you say anything more that 25k per year I'll know you're lying.

 

[Semore Butts]

B-19

You're Fired!

 

[o2bflyn]

ok here goes....

If there were no unions, would the company pay me what I am worth?

that depends on what you think your worth....I am not sure they are ready to pay you $1 million/month.


Only messing with you.....had to do it.

 

[brokeflyer]

that depends on what you think your worth....I am not sure they are ready to pay you $1 million/month.


Only messing with you.....had to do it.

lol....well that is my point. They will throw out a number that is nearly impossible to live on. I guess it should be worded "would they pay what the job is worth". No they won't. Management will attempt to get you as cheap as they can. And your two choices are to say no, or say yes. Either way you're screwed. And that's just on salary, it's the same on everything else too.

Wanna talk about facts?....think about the things management does, that is why you have unions.

Unions are a direct result of the fcking crap that management does to try ass rape it's employees. That is a fact. Think about it, if management conducted itself accordingly, and paid thier employees for the job they were doing, everyone would be happy.

 

[BeeDubya]

A CBA is rarely negotiated by unions in good faith, it's normally negotiated by blackmail. It doesn't exactly fit into the phrase, because the company is not "willing" to pay for it, they are forced to by blackmail.

Last time I checked, "blackmail" was a crime. So, if your statement is true, shouldn't every negotiation end in criminal charges filed against the Union?

http://www.uslaw.com/us_law_dictionary/b/Blackmailhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blackmail

Also, last time I check, not bargaining in good faith was a duty required by both parties under the RLA. So, again, if your statement is true, shouldn't every negotiation end in a suit being brought against the Union?

http://www.nmb.gov/helpdesk/hd_ulp.html

http://www.questia.com/PM.qst?a=o&d=28821515

 

[B19 Flyer]

Last time I checked, "blackmail" was a crime. So, if your statement is true, shouldn't every negotiation end in criminal charges filed against the Union?

http://www.uslaw.com/us_law_dictionary/b/Blackmail

Also, last time I check, not bargaining in good faith was a duty required by both parties under the RLA. So, again, if your statement is true, shouldn't every negotiation end in a suit being brought against the Union?

http://www.nmb.gov/helpdesk/hd_ulp.html

http://www.questia.com/PM.qst?a=o&d=28821515

You apparently have:

a) never sat in union negotiations
b) never been laid off or furloughed by the inaction of a union
c) have drunk way to much union koolaide


If you had, you would understand the union has replaced the word "blackmail" with "negotiations" and "good faith" with "I'll do whatever I want but not show up."

 

[B19 Flyer]

He should know a little bit about this.

You're Fired!

Like you were out of the 737?

 

[Semore Butts]

B-19

You're fired!

(your information is inacurate as usual)

 

[Semore Butts]

B-19

You're Fired!

 

[Semore Butts]

oops, duplicate entry

 

[B19 Flyer]

You're fired!

(your information is inacurate as usual)

Let's see, you quit the first time and got fired the second time from that 121 carrier, right? Did they not "luv" you?

 

[Semore Butts]

B-19

You have so much hate in you man


Attacking me doesn't change you, sorry.

 

[BeeDubya]

If you had, you would understand the union has replaced the word "blackmail" with "negotiations" and "good faith" with "I'll do whatever I want but not show up."

No, I've not been furloughed... yet... I'm still young.

I am involved with the Union, although have not been at the table for Section 6 bargaining, athough I played a role in the NJ IBB.

If you got to know me and my views, you'd see that while I lean pro-Union, I'm really not a kool-aid drinker. I just don't think that Unions are ALWAYS at fault nor that management is ALWAYS good. Nor do I believe absolutes in the opposite.

So were the Unions able to convince the courts at to their re-defining terms? Or is it perhaps the case that using the term "blackmail" was hyperbole and "not bargaining in good faith" overstatement? I mean, if those truly occurred, why not file suit(s)? Remember, we're talking about crimes and statutory violations, here.

 

[B19 Flyer]

Just setting the record straight.

You have so much hate in you man


Attacking me doesn't change you, sorry.

I don't have a shred of hate in me, and I didn't attack you. All I did was set the record straight after you needlessly spammed me in a bunch of threads.

 

[B19 Flyer]

No, I've not been furloughed... yet... I'm still young.

I am involved with the Union, although have not been at the table for Section 6 bargaining, athough I played a role in the NJ IBB.

If you got to know me and my views, you'd see that while I lean pro-Union, I'm really not a kool-aid drinker. I just don't think that Unions are ALWAYS at fault nor that management is ALWAYS good. Nor do I believe absolutes in the opposite.

So were the Unions able to convince the courts at to their re-defining terms? Or is it perhaps the case that using the term "blackmail" was hyperbole and "not bargaining in good faith" overstatement? I mean, if those truly occurred, why not file suit(s)? Remember, we're talking about crimes and statutory violations, here.

When faced with magnitude that lost wages, income and jobs that a strike or needless work action will incur, blackmail in todays market place is hyperbole but in today's world an appropriate term. Unions were originally meant to save the oppressed in a basic lawless enviorment decades ago. They had their place. Today, pilots are not oppressed, nor do they work in a lawless environment. Pilots make the choice to be pilots where coal miners and steel workers and manufacturing workers were stuck with little or no options. Unions have gone from providing a wage and protecting workers basic needs to negotiating 6 figure salaries and 10 plus days off a month. "Quality of life" has gone from basic survival to whether or not there is a second home for vacations. Yes, unions once had there place in society, but that time has long passed.

 

[FLYLOW22]

B19... "another empty kitchen".

 

[Publishers]

I know that this point will drift off to the never zone but management does not always determine what they pay for the job they are doing. What do I mean. The fact is that there is a market out there for a product and one has to produce the product for a price point for it to work. If I pay Breoke his value of $1.0m a month, he would be happy but first I have to find someone who is willing to pay me more for his services than that..In real life business, you will find that most of your costs are beyond your control which is why we have all these problems. Your skills as a professional pilot may be just as required to fly some checks across country as that GV guy. The check people just will not pay the same.

 

[BeeDubya]

When faced with magnitude that lost wages, income and jobs that a strike or needless work action will incur, blackmail in todays market place is hyperbole but in today's world an appropriate term. Unions were originally meant to save the oppressed in a basic lawless enviorment decades ago. They had their place. Today, pilots are not oppressed, nor do they work in a lawless environment. Pilots make the choice to be pilots where coal miners and steel workers and manufacturing workers were stuck with little or no options. Unions have gone from providing a wage and protecting workers basic needs to negotiating 6 figure salaries and 10 plus days off a month. "Quality of life" has gone from basic survival to whether or not there is a second home for vacations. Yes, unions once had there place in society, but that time has long passed.

This is the most moderate thing I've seen you post... As such, and because it displays vestiges of open-mindedness, it's the first thing I can respect.... while still in disagreement.

 

[Fozzy]

Unions have gone from providing a wage and protecting workers basic needs to negotiating 6 figure salaries and 10 plus days off a month.

So, 6 figures is to much?
And 10 days at home is to much?
I don't think my wife or kids would agree with you.

I am not surprised.
Same crap, different post.

I wonder, what are you going to do when you are finally outed? You know it is coming. :laugh:

 

[Fozzy]

"Quality of life" has gone from basic survival to whether or not there is a second home for vacations. Yes, unions once had there place in society, but that time has long passed.

I have to disagree with this also. Go figure. Rest rules and the ability to call fatigued does a lot for my basic survival. And please don't quote me FAR's. We all know how much that has done for the 121 side. Never seen "pilot fatigue" as a issue in a accident/incident .

 

[X-rated]

Unions have gone from providing a wage and protecting workers basic needs to negotiating 6 figure salaries and 10 plus days off a month. "Quality of life" has gone from basic survival to whether or not there is a second home for vacations. Yes, unions once had there place in society, but that time has long passed. [/FONT]

Really, 10 days off a month is too much? I would think someone who claims to be in management would be better with numbers.

20 work days times 14 hours of duty per day =280 hrs per month.

20 work days times 24 hrs away from home = 480 hrs per month.

How many hours per month do you or your office cronies work?

40 hrs per week times 4 = 160 hrs per mo.

That's either 175% or 300% more hours (depending how you look at it) than a typical office employee. For that, you think we should be paid a wage that allows us basic survival?

I don't care to weigh in on the whole union/non-union debate, but that comment was just plain ignorant!

 

[brokeflyer]

Really, 10 days off a month is too much? I would think someone who claims to be in management would be better with numbers.

20 work days times 14 hours of duty per day =280 hrs per month.

20 work days times 24 hrs away from home = 480 hrs per month.

How many hours per month do you or your office cronies work?

40 hrs per week times 4 = 160 hrs per mo.

That's either 175% or 300% more hours (depending how you look at it) than a typical office employee. For that, you think we should be paid a wage that allows us basic survival?

I don't care to weigh in on the whole union/non-union debate, but that comment was just plain ignorant!

gee whiz...we should be paid by the hour....we work 3 times as many hours as management...and we do 4 times the amount of work.


hmm something aint right.......time to re-negotiate.

 

[B19 Flyer]

So, 6 figures is to much?
And 10 days at home is to much?
I don't think my wife or kids would agree with you.

I am not surprised.
Same crap, different post.

I wonder, what are you going to do when you are finally outed? You know it is coming. :laugh:

The specifics are not important as much as the concept of it all. 60 or more years ago unions were looking to help workers simply stay alive (as in living and not dying. The wage was within the average income of an normal american family. That wage would pay the rent and buy basic food because they were forced to work where they were because they had no other options.)

Your concept of staying alive today is an income 2-3 times that of the average american family in a profession that you have chosen. Life and death isn't an issue as it was for them. You are protected by laws and have choices they didn't.

Unions no longer negotiate to help the oppressed, they now negotiate to create an artificial quality of life that puts the company at risk with all the other workers out of selfishness and greed. This isn't to state pilots are not valued as a six figure salary. What it does say, is that the wage should be based on the business plan and not forced upon the company by a union in a method that could put all the employees in jeapardy.

 

[B19 Flyer]

gee whiz...we should be paid by the hour....we work 3 times as many hours as management...and we do 4 times the amount of work.


hmm something aint right.......time to re-negotiate.

When you land the airplane, your day is done. Don't confuse the hours behind a desk with the responsibility of running a 24 hour a day operation.

Management doesn't work 40 hour weeks just because they are in the building for that period of time. The fun never ends and is a lot more demanding that flying from point A to point B.