Legal Way to pad logbook

pilotyip

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A couple of 300 hour CFI's buy a cheap airplane, Piper Cub, Aeronca, or even a C-150. The CFI gives dual and logs PIC as a CFI the other CFI just logs PIC. You take-off, make one circuit of the pattern, full stop 30-minute taxi back. You have moved the airplane with the intent of flight, and block time stops when you park and shutdown. Sound legal to me. Do this 16 times and you have logged 8 hours of legal flight time. You have put 2 hours on the tack and burned 12 gallons of gas. Costs about $48 or $24 per pilot or $3 per block hour per pilot. If you have a Hobb's meter you have a documented source of block time to support your flight time. Do this five days a weeks and in 30 weeks you have 1200 hours of legal pilot time at cost of about $3600 plus the cost of your airplane which you can recoup. Now you are going to be in the front row for those regional airline jobs. However it has nothing to do with your ability to fly under Part 121, but that is the way with regs.
 
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Jedi_Cheese

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Yip, I like you and all but why post this out of nowhere? And if you think that logging an additional 1200 hours of C152 time in todays market will get you a job, I would like you to introduce you to several pilots with thousands of hours that are currently looking for a job (actually, just PM me the job posting and I'll give you my resume).

There are legal ways to fill your logbook that are helpful and legal ways to pad your logbook that shoot you in the foot. Aviation is full of people that filled their logbook and yet didn't learn enough along the way. Filling your logbook shouldn't be priority #1 because all the flight time in the world won't save you if you auger it in when something unexpected comes up.
 

ackattacker

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hah!
The FAA may or may not find a way to nail you for that but no airline would hire you with that logbook.

Besides, after 1200 hours taxi time in a C-152 you would be ready to jump off a bridge.
 

pilotyip

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on second thought

It's a follow-up to a recent thread discussing a pilot who had padded his logbook.

http://forums.flightinfo.com/showthread.php?t=127952
You are right, I should have posted it over there, but it goes back to my convictions that flight time is not the complete 'Breakfast of Champions" as far as who can fly an airplane. But it has now been turned into a regulation in an attempt to remedy a problem, which introduces a new problem. For instance at 1200 TT I was a P-3 Aircraft Commander, 100K+ four engine airplane, world wide operations, day/night IFR, low level, etc, but I would not be qualified to sit in the right seat of a SF-340, even though most likely I am way better qualified than the 1500 pilot I put in my example. BTW If the regional are desperate for F/O's my 1500 gets the job, because it has nothing to do with flying and it has everything to do with regulatory compliance.


 
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20sx

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I wish I would have read that when i was a time builder:))))

Yip, you're a genius!
 

Brasilia Pup

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Jedi hit it right on the head. The total hours may pass a minimum requirement, but that's it. The interview squad will look at your time in a 152 and laugh. They want to see progressively more advanced a/c and operations. Remember, this is post 9-11 and there are plenty of qualified 121 pilots on furlough with 121 PIC turbine experience.
All you would be doing is wasting your time and money. If you're going to put that much time and money into something, my advice would be to select a different career. Us, pre 9-11er's are kinda stuck with this career. Believe me, it's not what it used to be.
 

Flightdawg

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Jedi hit it right on the head. The total hours may pass a minimum requirement, but that's it. The interview squad will look at your time in a 152 and laugh.
True. If they don't laugh then, they'll certainly laugh during the sim portion of the interview. "Well your flying skills and ILS were very rough, but you are the best taxi pilot I've ever seen!"

Yip's comments have a bit of truth in them, but what he forgets to mention is that military flight time is different than civilian. It's very training or mission oriented. There is continual oversight. There is also a different in how it is logged. In Naval Aviation we didn't log block to block. This is why some airlines allow military pilots to add a .3 per flight to their times.

Quality of flight time is a factor in airline interviews. I'm a helo bubba and was hired with 9, yes, count'em 9 hours of MEL time back in the day. It helped that I had 5000 hours turbine, half turboshaft and half single-engine turboprop with a brand new ATP-MEL, but it was still only 9 hours. It made my airline training a challenge having such low time in a MEL, but it did get me the job.

This is one reason why those who went to the pilot factories were given preferential treatment since it was well documented what the quality of their flight training consisted. I'm not saying those who went Part 61 are any less a good pilot. As a former airline pilot interviewer, all I'm saying is that it was easier to discern the quality of the pilot sitting in front of me if the quality of their flight time was well documented.

Where the tip Yip offered would really pay off, IMHO, is in logging MEL. It's very expensive and getting over that 200 hour hump is costly. Still, make sure you are a proficient pilot before showing up at any airline interview.
 

atpcliff

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Hi!

Unless you are applying at one of the airlines that does not allow any instructor time to count at all, and SE recip may or may not be counted either.

A lot of foreign places ONLY count P1/P2 time (PIC/SIC).

cliff
NBO
 

pilotyip

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However

Jedi hit it right on the head. The total hours may pass a minimum requirement, but that's it. The interview squad will look at your time in a 152 and laugh. They want to see progressively more advanced a/c and operations. Remember, this is post 9-11 and there are plenty of qualified 121 pilots on furlough with 121 PIC turbine experience.
All you would be doing is wasting your time and money. If you're going to put that much time and money into something, my advice would be to select a different career. Us, pre 9-11er's are kinda stuck with this career. Believe me, it's not what it used to be.
The airline must hire 12 pilots, and only 11 show up who are really quality guys, 1501 SEL is #12, he is legal, we must fill the slot, he get the job. Having hired a number of 250 hour wonders out of All ATP's I can say they were well prepared, easy to train, and made great F/O's in the DA-20
 

Movin' on up!

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1200 hours of taking off and landing doesn't give you the experience you would otherwise obtain by doing approaches, actually going to different airports etc. So you have 1200 hours but have the experience of a 300 hours pilot. Doesn't make too much sense.
 

pilotyip

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regulation

1200 hours of taking off and landing doesn't give you the experience you would otherwise obtain by doing approaches, actually going to different airports etc. So you have 1200 hours but have the experience of a 300 hours pilot. Doesn't make too much sense.
Regulation is about complience, not common sense
 

Flightdawg

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Regulation is about complience, not common sense
True. Survival is about common sense. OTOH, Movin' on up! has a very good point a 1200 hour pilot with the experience of a 300 hour pilot. It may get him the interview, and maybe even the job, but this could very well bite him in the tail during training. We washed out about 10% of our 300 hour wonders. A washout is a five-year kiss of death for airline employment.

If a pilot has strong study habits, things well on his/her feet and excellent instrument flying skills, then they shouldn't have a problem. If they are weak in any of those areas, they would be better off flying cargo, checks or eyeballs for a year or so to allow those skills to develop. In that case, it isn't the amount of time in the log book that counts, but the amount of experience behind the yoke.
 

bizjet800

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If I see a resume from a guy with 1200 hours in 30 weeks there won't be much doubt he's a pencil whipper--and probably a poor pilot to boot!
 

pilotyip

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no pencil whipping here

If I see a resume from a guy with 1200 hours in 30 weeks there won't be much doubt he's a pencil whipper--and probably a poor pilot to boot!
He brings in the log pages from the airplane and shows the Hobbs meter reading that matches the logbook. All FAA legal. In three years when the regionals can not fill their seats because they can not find pilots with 1500 hours, this guy will have head of the line privileges, it is not about safety, it is about compliance.
 
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bizjet800

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He brings in the log pages from the airplane and shows the Hobbs meter reading that matches the logbook. All FAA legal. In three years when the regionals can not fill their seats because they can not find pilots with 1500 hours, this guy will have head of the line privileges, it is not about safety, it is about compliance.
Bring in all the log books you want (and all the transfer orders) but this guy will get laughed out of any real airline interview, or any corporate one for that matter. Does anyone one really think that a few hundred hours of flight time, embedded in 1200 hours of taxi time will really advance their career? I hope this guy chooses his commuter airline well, because he'll be stuck there for a long time!
 

bizjet800

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Bring in all the log books you want (and all the transfer orders) but this guy will get laughed out of any real airline interview, or any corporate one for that matter. Does anyone one really think that a few hundred hours of flight time, embedded in 1200 hours of taxi time will really advance their career? I hope this guy chooses his commuter airline well, because he'll be stuck there for a long time!
Better yet, this guy should put together a Power Point presentation, then turn it into a movie on how he could solve many of the worlds' problems. For example: global warming, reducing our carbon footprint and greenhouse gasses, all while solving the mythical pilot shortage. And, in today's mantra of every kid gets a trophy, receive a Nobel prize and an Oscar!
 

Amish RakeFight

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He brings in the log pages from the airplane and shows the Hobbs meter reading that matches the logbook. All FAA legal. In three years when the regionals can not fill their seats because they can not find pilots with 1500 hours, this guy will have head of the line privileges, it is not about safety, it is about compliance.

Well then, do you comply or hire safe pilots? You've spoken at length on the well-rounded 300 hrs guys you've stuck in the DA 20.

Would you hire a person with the logbook you cite as an example?
 

pilotyip

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my point

Well then, do you comply or hire safe pilots? You've spoken at length on the well-rounded 300 hrs guys you've stuck in the DA 20.

Would you hire a person with the logbook you cite as an example?
flt time does not determine the ability of a pilot, training does, training if properly done can substitue for expereince. Back to my military example 900 hour Aircraft Commanders flying world wide. But we are going to turn flt time into a regulation and limit the ability to hire the right guy. BTW our 300 hour "All ATP" training pilots did a great job. solid IFR skills into busy airports.
 

cynic

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but it goes back to my convictions that flight time is not the complete 'Breakfast of Champions" as far as who can fly an airplane.
Pilotyip is spot on. One of the most important qualifications would be a college degree. If you don't have one you have no business in a sophisticated aircraft. I think an MS degree should be required!

Kudos to you pilotyip!
 
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