Legacy Bashfest - Bring it on!

[Dangerkitty]

Whatever dude. I know exactly what a shadow is. And I am telling you that you have NO IDEA HOW THE EMB RADAR WORKS. PERIOD. If you have an area of ground clutter or rainfall that extends beyond your "shadow" area then you know you are painting a cell. You can manipulate what the radar shows you by adjusting gain. YOU CAN PAINT "NOISE" WITH THE ANTENNA POINTED UP 15 DEGREES BY MANUALLY PUTTING THE GAIN TO MAX! THERE IS NO REQUIREMENT FOR PRECIP FOR THE RADAR TO SHOW NOISE. YOU CAN TELL A RETURN IS REALLY RAIN BY FORCING IT TO ATTENUATE AT A LOWER POWER SETTING THROUGH THE GAIN. I WILL QUOTE THE AOM FOR YOU AGAIN SINCE YOU COULDN'T READ IT THE FIRST TIME:


"NAVIGATION AND
COMMUNICATION
AIRPLANE
OPERATIONS
MANUAL
2-18-45
Page
12
Code
01 REVISION 6
ANTENNA STABILIZATION (STAB or STB)
The antenna is normally pitch and roll-stabilized by using attitude
information from the IRS. Momentarily pushing the STAB (or STB)
button disables antenna stabilization and an amber “STAB”
annunciation label is presented on the PFDs’ and MFDs’ radar mode
field.
RECEIVER GAIN (GAIN)
The GAIN knob is a rotary control and push/pull switch that controls
radar receiver gain. Two gain modes are available: calibrated or
variable.
Calibrated: When the GAIN knob is pushed in, receiver gain is preset
and calibrated, which is the normal mode of operation. In calibrated
gain, the rotary function of the GAIN knob is disabled.
Variable (VAR): When the GAIN knob is pulled out, the system enters
the variable gain mode. Variable gain is used for additional weather
analysis and for ground mapping. In the WX mode, variable gain can
increase receiver sensitivity over the calibrated level to show very weak
targets or can be reduced below the calibrated level to eliminate weak
returns. In the GMAP mode, variable gain is used to reduce the level of
strong returns from ground targets."



CALL IT A SHADOW. CALL IT A RETURN. CALL IT A DEADSPOT. CALL IT WHATEVER THE HELL YOU WANT. THIS IS WHAT PEOPLE REFER TO WHEN THEY ARE TALKING ABOUT PULLING A SHADOW OUT OF A RETURN. THIS IS HOW YOU DISTINGUISH PRECIP FROM CLUTTER!!!!!!!!!! If you are painting everywhere to 100 miles and in one spot only paint to 75 miles then you are probably seeing a cell. This is an X-band radar if I am right so it will attenuate fairly easily. The gain helps you interpret what it is telling you. Leaving it in AUTO will give you either all black, all green, a green egg for an area of heavy rain when you get close to it, or all green, red, yellow. The GAIN helps you determine what you are or are NOT seeing and helps you do so at greater range than leaving everything in AUTO.

Geeeeeze.....amazing what a lunkhead you are acting like over phraseology. I have asked you to correct the terminology and all you do is call me names. I am really trying to explain this in intuitive terms and it just isn't sinking in. Well, I may be a fraud but I can spot weather with an EMB radar better than you can obviously.

If you can't keep a civil tone then please go discuss this topic with the voices in your head.

The concept of a radar shadow is not an abstract conept. It has nothing to do with ground clutter. I have explained this over and over and over and you still don't get it. Then I give you a verbatim definition and you still dont understand it. Furthermore, you go off on the tangent about using the gain. Messing with the gain will do nothing when it comes to a radar shadow. Using the tilt might help a little but the gain will do nothing for you.

When you are messing with the gain all you are doing is changing the sensitivity of the radar. With a radar shadow (as I have explained countless time) the attenuation is so strong that the radar cannot tell you what is on the other side of the very strong precip. Changing the gain is not going to get the signal through that attenutation area. It can't be done.

You have got to be the biggest moron of all time to ever come the flightinfo. And after reading some of the posts here for a few years that really is saying alot.

You are such and idiot that you have no clue what a dumba$$ you sound like.

I have tried to explain a simple concept over and over and over to you and you still dont get it. Maybe someone else out there could explain what a radar shadow is to this ignorant douche bag?

Oh by the way ERJ-140 I am still curious about your job interview. You know from all those PM's yo got the night you were $hitfaced and made a fool out of yourself posting all those rambling messages.

How did it go?

 

[Dangerkitty]

Please someone else out there help me to explain to this idiot what a radar shadow is and the fact that using gain has nothing to do with it. I have tried to explain it as best I could but I guess when someone barely has a Private license and makes up airplanes he is typed in I guess they are not all that educated when it comes to aviation.

Red-Headed Step Child, we are all still wondering what happened with that job interview you were given through PM here on flightinfo. Are you going to tell us about it or are you only able to do so when you are highly intoxicated. You know when you came on here and typed out all those all those rambling messages about how we suck and anonymous people were cheering you on?

How did it go?

 

[banned username 2]

Does the world need his kind of baseless, tiresome, unsupportable nattering and prattling-on about how great it is? Well, that's one of those Big Philosophical Questions I can't begin answer here, but nowadays they make Discovery Channel documentaries trying to convince us that packs of hyenas are quite "interesting", how wonderfully "cute" octopii are, and Great White sharks needn't be feared (you irrational silly people!) because they kill and eat fewer humans every year than, say... crocodiles....which in turn (we find out the very next evening) are supposedly nothing more than loveable, overgrown newts. Given this condition we're in, I suppose it's no suprise that likewise even a hunk-o-junk Sh1tmachine like the WSCoD will produce a rabid, yet schizophrenic, fan.

Now THAT is a Dennis Miller "Rant" if I ever heard one!!!

 

[Lead Sled]

Please someone else out there help me to explain to this idiot what a radar shadow is and the fact that using gain has nothing to do with it.

This thread is getting stale. Guys like him will kill themselves with their fingers on the gain control knob. There is no real reason to screw with gain. Leave it at the "preset" and don't screw with it.

Radar shadows are caused by signal attenuation. Attenuation is simply the absorbsion or loss of signal energy as the radar pulse penetrates an area of preciptation. A signal that is fully attenuated is fully absorbed, with no pulses being returned to the radar R/T to be "painted" on the screen. An area of attenuation appears "blank" on the screen.

Airborne weather radars come in basically two different varieties: "X-Band" and "C-Band". The C-Band units are typically installed in larger transport category aircraft and use 24", 28" or 30" dishes. The X-Band units are typically installed in general aviation aircraft and use 10", 12", 18" as well as the larger dishes depending upon the size of the aircraft radome.

A radar shadow appears as a "U" or "Devil's Smile" ("Come on over here, Sucker!") Because of the EXTREME precipitation that causes signal to fully attenuate, it is EXACTLY where you don't want to be. There have been several accidents caused by flightcrew misunderstanding and misinterpreting their radar displays, for example, the classic example - Southern Airways DC-9 Flight 242 back in April of 1977. It appears as though the crew must have mistaken the "Devil's Smile" for an area of improving weather. Fatal mistake! Under those circumstances, you always want to fly toward an area where you're getting returns and avoid the radar shadow.

Attenuation, to one degree or another, is a factor every time you operate in precipitation. For example, our bizjets use X-Band radars with 12" or 18" dishes. In light to moderate rain, you would probably what to add one level of intensity to anything shown on the displays because of attenuation. If you understand the principle of attenuation, it becomes another tool that you can use to analyse the conditions that you are encountering.

Most pilots (including experienced airline types) have no real concept on how to use and interpret weather radar unless they've taken a formal course like Dave Qwinn's or Archie Trammell's.

'Sled

 

[Flechas]

You gotta love Archi, he'll put you to sleep in no time!!

He knows a lot though, he just needs to change the tone of his voice.

 

[Dangerkitty]

[/color]Most pilots (including experienced airline types) have no real concept on how to use and interpret weather radar unless they've taken a formal course like Dave Qwinn's or Archie Trammell's.

'Sled

Thanks sled, some really good info there and you are dead on.

Archie Trammell's presentations and info are the best. However, they will put you to sleep quicker than a dose of Ambien. Could that guy be anymore monotone?

He reminds me of Ben Stein in Ferris Bueller's Day Off.

 

[Lead Sled]

Archie Trammell's presentations and info are the best. However, they will put you to sleep quicker than a dose of Ambien. Could that guy be anymore monotone?

I've been to 4 or 5 of his courses over the past 18 years. The company that I used to work for sent us every two years as part of our recurrent training. The last course that I attended was one put on by Dave Gwinn for Honeywell. IT'S FAR AND AWAY THE BEST WX RADAR COURSE OFFERED TODAY. PERIOD. Archie's is probably comparable to a high school level presentation; Gwinn's is definately college level.

'Sled

 

[Dangerkitty]

I've been to 4 or 5 of his courses over the past 18 years. The company that I used to work for sent us every two years as part of our recurrent training. The last course that I attended was one put on by Dave Gwinn for Honeywell. IT'S FAR AND AWAY THE BEST WX RADAR COURSE OFFERED TODAY. PERIOD. Archie's is probably comparable to a high school level presentation; Gwinn's is definately college level.

'Sled

Nice. The best one I have been to was at AA and was put on by an AA checkairman who was the radar guru for the airline. Very very indepth course in the way to use radar and understanding it limitations.

I will have to check out Dave Gwinn. Is there any videotaped presentations that one can receive?

 

[ERJ-140]

[/color]
Attenuation, to one degree or another, is a factor every time you operate in precipitation. For example, our bizjets use X-Band radars with 12" or 18" dishes. In light to moderate rain, you would probably what to add one level of intensity to anything shown on the displays because of attenuation. If you understand the principle of attenuation, it becomes another tool that you can use to analyse the conditions that you are encountering.

Most pilots (including experienced airline types) have no real concept on how to use and interpret weather radar unless they've taken a formal course like Dave Qwinn's or Archie Trammell's.

'Sled

Then let's put this phrase another way. I have thought of every conceivable way to phrase what I am talking about. How about, "Pulling a cell out of clutter" instead? Does that help? Like a friend of mine once said to his F/O after being asked which way he wanted to divert around the "next cell." "Yeah, ask Center which way they want us to divert around Cleveland." Lots of EMB drivers don't have the concept down. It's not a highly emphasized part of training (at least at some regionals).

You can tell a cell is a cell by seeing what is or is not behind it. The GAIN on this radar will show clutter in some areas and blank spots behind precip by varying the gain. I have done it many times in daylight just for practice to teach others. Leaving it in auto will often just paint green everywhere with no clear indication of intensity because it often all looks the same. I don't care what you call it, varying the gain and tilt as described works.

I am in no way going to kill myself of that I can assure you. I have plenty of experience with precip and radar in the EMB and have never had a problem. Leaving an EMB radar in AUTO gain will provide you at times with a lot of useless information. You absolutely MUST use the GAIN control with this radar (in addition to tilt angle variations) or you will find yourself (as clearly some have) in the middle of some very bad stuff.

 

[Dangerkitty]

Then let's put this phrase another way. I have thought of every conceivable way to phrase what I am talking about. How about, "Pulling a cell out of clutter" instead? Does that help? Like a friend of mine once said to his F/O after being asked which way he wanted to divert around the "next cell." "Yeah, ask Center which way they want us to divert around Cleveland." Lots of EMB drivers don't have the concept down. It's not a highly emphasized part of training (at least at some regionals).

You can tell a cell is a cell by seeing what is or is not behind it. The GAIN on this radar will show clutter in some areas and blank spots behind precip by varying the gain. I have done it many times in daylight just for practice to teach others. Leaving it in auto will often just paint green everywhere with no clear indication of intensity because it often all looks the same. I don't care what you call it, varying the gain and tilt as described works.

I am in no way going to kill myself of that I can assure you. I have plenty of experience with precip and radar in the EMB and have never had a problem. Leaving an EMB radar in AUTO gain will provide you at times with a lot of useless information. You absolutely MUST use the GAIN control with this radar (in addition to tilt angle variations) or you will find yourself (as clearly some have) in the middle of some very bad stuff.

Who needs facts and trainnig when you can use ERJ-140's "Uneducated and illogical use of Aircraft Radar." At your your local bookstores now.