Leaving Jetblue

[Smarta$$]

Air Wisconsin 5% with 3% fixed, Comair 6%, Mesaba up to 12.5%, Horizon up to 10%, Piedmont up to 8%. We have fairly similar medical plans. We are not far off from a regional. But we are a nice place to work.

Wrong sir. Most of those plans, I can speak for Mesaba for sure, are 1-2% for the first 5 years, then 3% for the next 5 years, then 7% or so for the next 5 years...

Mesaba takes something like 14+ years to get to 10%, and 18+ years to get to 12.5%

I would bet real money that most if not all of the others are similar.

We get 10% from day one, and with the time value of compounding interest, the difference is considerable. I left Pinnacle/Mesaba (same contract) after more than 5 years.... 1.5% TOTAL 401k match.... (new contract, old one was WORSE!)

 

[Smarta$$]

Smart

Look man I'm not picking on you. I know we are not a regional. But we ar far off from a major. Jetblue in my time has chosen to trend towards the regional rather than a major. We have a fixed operating budget for pilot pay/benefits. The company does not hide this. For every raise/benefit we receive somewhere else we pay more. Receive a raise, fly more days. Increase the retirement increase the insurance. We are a cost neutral pilot group. This was a huge issue with the ALPA supporters. At some point we need to close the gap that is larger than F/H and Jetblue reported.

I don't have an issue with much of your analysis. However, with many FO's making 100+ and many captains making 175-200+, with 10% retirement match from day 1, with good schedule flexibility (FLICA), good working environment, stable finances and impressive growth, WE ARE NOT COMPARABLE TO ANY REGIONAL. Period. And you know that.

Now, I have had many exec's on flights recently, as well as a few conference calls where RM has stated that there is ADDITIONAL money already in the 2012 budget to improve retirement. Not rob Peter to pay Paul, but an actual budget increase for adding retirement funding. Not that they haven't used cost neutral programs in the past, but in this case, I expect an overall compensation increase.

I have no problem with you, and am often in agreement with you.

 

[Smarta$$]

I spent 7 years at a regional before coming to JB. When I flew a 50 seat RJ I would compare my company and benefits to other places that operated a 50seat RJ.

Now that I am here at JB I compare our pay/benefits to other operators of similar equipment (A319/320/321, 737, E190) and I see we could do some catching up. Our dollar per hour rates arent terrible, but we could use some work rule improvements along with better insurance rates and change the 401k match to more solid language so that we dont continue to have arguements over "what is considered retirement?"

Jetblue is a seriously great place to work, and I prefer to be here as opposed to Delta. As our company grows and becomes a more permanent fixture in the industry, we as a pilot group need to have more definition and security in our career as well.

Absolutely agree. The only reason I was comparing our pay and retirement to a regional was show the terrible logic in wasting away at Compass waiting for some future mythical flow through instead of coming here.

Good post.

 

[B6Busdriver]

We shouldn't even be talking about regional retirement, benefits, pay, etc. I don't care what it was like it COMAIR, Mesaba or any other crappy regional.

The facts are this, our retirement is 35-40% behind, NOT including profit sharing. Example; Alaska Airlines has a 13.5% B fund and they received another 7.5% in profit sharing. Bluejet pilots got 10%. Also 5% of that is a match, a B fund is not a match it's a direct contribution. That's a 110% difference! Ouch. Thanks to the ALPA haters we are stuck with this until the company finds it in the goodness of their heart to do something about it.

 

[Smarta$$]

JB pilots only have to contribute 5% to get 10%. Not that having an additional incentive to save is a bad thing. But yes, we should have a CBA.

 

[B6Busdriver]

JB pilots only have to contribute 5% to get 10%. Not that having an additional incentive to save is a bad thing. But yes, we should have a CBA.

JetBlue pilots get a 5% matching on 401k and a 5% "guaranteed" profit sharing. That "guaranteed" portion is subject to board approval. Also the "guaranteed" portion is placed in your account annually so you lose $$ compared to a monthly payment via a B fund. Additionally you receive NO retirement contribution if out on medical. Yes may airlines still contribute to your retirement while out on medical.

 

[Smarta$$]

JetBlue pilots get a 5% matching on 401k and a 5% "guaranteed" profit sharing. That "guaranteed" portion is subject to board approval. Also the "guaranteed" portion is placed in your account annually so you lose $$ compared to a monthly payment via a B fund. Additionally you receive NO retirement contribution if out on medical. Yes may airlines still contribute to your retirement while out on medical.

Yep, I agree. Needs improvement. What have we learned that we didn't already know?

 

[Dizel8]

Smartie,

Where is your 13% number coming from?

 

[Otto77]

Now, I have had many exec's on flights recently, as well as a few conference calls where RM has stated that there is ADDITIONAL money already in the 2012 budget to improve retirement. Not rob Peter to pay Paul, but an actual budget increase for adding retirement funding. Not that they haven't used cost neutral programs in the past, but in this case, I expect an overall compensation increase.

We have heard this before. "There is a work around for that". Ill believe it when I see it.

 

[$$$4nothin]

I am looking at a minimum of 14 hard days off on reserve this month. I have already had 2 long call days and a early release day. That is now up to at least 17 days at home this month. I am expecting more long call days as well. I also just spent the morning hunting with another JB guy who is currently on long call (in ohio). 3rd day in a row he has had long call. My life is pretty good at JB to say the least. Yes retirement needs some work. Yes we need merger protection. However I did just pay off my car this morning 3 years early while on first year pay, and if I can get a 6% (fingers crossed) return out of the stock market I am still set to retire at 52 years old if I want. That is at current retirement rates so when it gets better (and it will) my life only gets better.

 

[Lake Alice]

Smartie,

Where is your 13% number coming from?

Our leadership mentioned they may add money to our retirement at some point but did not specify a time frame. Jetblue has been telling us we are 2.3% behind for 3 years. In reality we are 30-40% behind. There will be no change to retirement portion of our benefits. They may increase our retirement in another manner but it won't be on a monthly basis.

 

[Dizel8]

Lake,

Yep, we have heard that story before, plenty of times as a matter of fact, hence I was curious who "promised" it this time around.

I can only surmise, and I say this with all due respect, that Snartie hasn't been here long enough to have witnessed all the broken promises.

 

[Smarta$$]

Smartie,

Where is your 13% number coming from?

I have had a few Exec's on my aircraft lately that have said that was approximately the number they had included in the 2012 budget. They said the method for closing the gap was to be determined by them, the PVC, and possibly a vote between a few choices by the pilot group.

They have also said on 2 conference calls that the ADDITIONAL money has been included in the 2012 budget for retirement improvements, and that it didn't matter when in 2012 it was finalized because the method would be retroactive for the entire year.

 

[Smarta$$]

We have heard this before. "There is a work around for that". Ill believe it when I see it.

Fair enough. I guess we will know in the next 358 days.

 

[Smarta$$]

Lake,

Yep, we have heard that story before, plenty of times as a matter of fact, hence I was curious who "promised" it this time around.

I can only surmise, and I say this with all due respect, that Snartie hasn't been here long enough to have witnessed all the broken promises.

I appreciate the due respect, and you are correct that I have not been here long enough to witness the broken promises. However, I am a naturally skeptical person when it comes to corporate executives and their propensity to doing anything but the right thing.

The next 358 days will give us the answer. I do have some confidence because I have had a few of top guys on my aircraft (including the top finance guy), in addition to public comments on 2 conference calls that say the money is IN the budget, and IS a straight increase in overall pilot compensation.

Call me an idiot in 358 days, and if it doesn't happen, I will agree with you.

 

[Smarta$$]

Our leadership mentioned they may add money to our retirement at some point but did not specify a time frame. Jetblue has been telling us we are 2.3% behind for 3 years. In reality we are 30-40% behind. There will be no change to retirement portion of our benefits. They may increase our retirement in another manner but it won't be on a monthly basis.

Well, you are confusing 2 different ways of representing the numbers. They are refering to 2.3% as a match of our salary. Which compared to our current 10% 401k funding would be an increase of 23%.

You don't have to exagerate to make your point. I think you are correct that our retirement is 30-40% behind our major airline peers, but that only translates to 3-4% of our overall compensation.

13-14% 401k match represents a 30-40% increase in retirement funding, but only a 3-4% increase in overall compensation.

You are exagerating for effect. Stick with facts and you get more people to share your concerns... As I do.

 

[banger]

Well, you are confusing 2 different ways of representing the numbers. They are refering to 2.3% as a match of our salary. Which compared to our current 10% 401k funding would be an increase of 23%.

You don't have to exagerate to make your point. I think you are correct that our retirement is 30-40% behind our major airline peers, but that only translates to 3-4% of our overall compensation.

13-14% 401k match represents a 30-40% increase in retirement funding, but only a 3-4% increase in overall compensation.

You are exagerating for effect. Stick with facts and you get more people to share your concerns... As I do.

What bothers me is that the comparison with the representative airlines is done for a previous year. So when and if we get that raise it is already a year behind. Then we hear from our own pay committee that an already agreed upon method for pay raises (I didn't agree) might not be honored. To me this is not in good faith.

 

[Smarta$$]

What bothers me is that the comparison with the representative airlines is done for a previous year. So when and if we get that raise it is already a year behind. Then we hear from our own pay committee that an already agreed upon method for pay raises (I didn't agree) might not be honored. To me this is not in good faith.

It bothers me as well. Furthermore, if you listened to RB explain during the conference calls, he said they are concerned about the pay review policy because AA and SW may be taking paycuts (his words, so no thread drift please). He forgot to mention that DAL and United-CAL will probably be getting good raises, as well as cost of living increases at Spirit, Alaska, and others that will likely offset "potential" decreases in AA and SW. Not that I think they will take pay rate decreases anyway.

I think it is just posturing and expectations management more than anything though. After a pilot caller pushed him a little bit on the subject, RB backtracked and said they ARE NOT looking at pay reductions, and will most likely follow the agreed upon pay review process. He said that they just want to be cautious about pay increases because they have no process or intent to claw back pay rates once agreed upon. To me, it was managing expectations and posturing so that when they do give us our little 2% raise, that we don't bitch about not getting more.

Pretty standard corporate playbook stuff.

But yes, our raises come a year later than others in my opinion. But without a union and a CBA, we are never going to be "leaders". We will ride on other coat tales. Not that unions always get their raises in a timely matter either. Seems the typical raises at the union shops come in a timely matter during the contract and then after the amendable period, you wait 3-5 years without anything, until you get a new agreement that never seems to make up all the ground you lost.

 

[Dizel8]

Smartie,

Naw, rather not call you an idiot and I hope that the "talk" does indeed come true, but it has been promised so many times, that most of us just gave up believing it. Maybe this time it'll be true, time will tell.

Of course, what we must not forget, is that at present, we are amongst the most productive pilot group, if not number one, and yet, we are still just hoping for industry average.

Seems like above average performance should also mean above average pay!

 

[fifty30retard]

Smartie,

Naw, rather not call you an idiot and I hope that the "talk" does indeed come true, but it has been promised so many times, that most of us just gave up believing it. Maybe this time it'll be true, time will tell.

Of course, what we must not forget, is that at present, we are amongst the most productive pilot group, if not number one, and yet, we are still just hoping for industry average.

Seems like above average performance should also mean above average pay!

You are correct Sir.