Leaving Delta for Corporate

[sleepy]

Sleepy,

One thing I've learned during that my career is that if you have 10000pilots on the list, you have 10000 different personalities. Mostpilots fit into a fairly similar mold, but there are a few who are inand even beyond the fringes. Fortunately the processes we use forhiring pilots filter most of the latter types out, however, there aresome who squeeze through. I'm happy to know that our filterprocess worked for you.

If you actually took the time to read my posts in their entirety,except the parts that said "delta pilot to corporate", you would haveseen that nowhere I made an assumption of being hired as a GV Captainbecause I'm a Delta pilot. I'm taking a very humble approach tothis venture and my decisions will affect my family and me for the restof our lives. If you're so close minded as to automaticalllyexclude a pilot simply because of where he/she has worked, you're luckyyou find anyone to work for you.

T

I have nothing against you sir. I was simply telling you what didn't work for some of your co-workers (and I wasn't making this up either). It sounds like you have the right attitude, you need to network.

 

[G100driver]

airline pilots are people too! it's good to get a different perspective on the way we do things. value added. nothing should stay the same. i would look at everyone and not exclude anyone.


s/f

That is a mighty progessive statement there, semperfido For all we know you could live in the Pac NW.

You are correct though, everyone is different and all should be given a chance. Speaking as a progressive though.

 

[semperfido]

That is a mighty progessive statement there, semperfido For all we know you could live in the Pac NW.

You are correct though, everyone is different and all should be given a chance. Speaking as a progressive though.

LOL...now that's funny

 

[AA717driver]

The toughest thing I had to adjust to was the feeling that when I started sending out resumes (initially to airlines, NJI and cold calling corporate outfits) was that the world would beat a path to my door because I was a captain for a major and had a bunch of zeros after all my flight time.

WRONG!

Once I quit waiting for the phone to ring, I started networking and deciding where I wanted to end up.

Again, the problem for those transitioning from airline to corporate is that our predecessors were, in many cases, real a$$holes and made it doubly difficult for us to make the transition. It will take a long time for airline types to not be viewed as temp workers in corporate.

You need to cultivate relationships in corporate departments so they know you and you're not just another resume. You also need to prepare a "schtick" to use when talking to people in a corporate department. You can't just walk up and say "well, since the airlines suck right now, I think I'll try corporate". This has to be a well-reasoned decision and, while the airline's downturn pushed you over the edge, you've been considering this move for a long time. You've articulated your reasoning here but just flesh it out and make it conversational.

Being relatively senior won't hurt in that they will know you aren't just looking for a furlough avoidance program.

This is a pretty good place to start your change of career--it never hurts to get the b!tchslapping out of the way early! It toughens you up for those rejection letters. TC

 

[CatYaaak]

...The only problem is he has put himself on the market to the local guys as being willing to do the job for less money, because he already has his pension ect. He makes me want to puke. Here is a guy who had a great career, made a few bucks and walked away with a good pention. This probably the same kinda guy who rallied against the RJ's and B scale pay. He is now flying as a Hawker 800XP PIC making $50,000/year. This guy is the modern day SCAB in corporate aviation. I hold nothing but contempt for him and his type.
QUOTE]

I had a flashback and puked just from just reading your example....a big 'ole hairball, and it wasn't pretty. You know, the "p" in the word "pilot" has always stood for Prostitute, but I can't stand filthy whores like this.

When I ran a small flight department for a few years it required having a few prospects in mind if we needed somebody to fill-in for temp contract work so I'd spend a little time calling around to flesh out resume info, finding out what they expected to be paid per day, etc. As I recall, crumpling up and tossing-out resumes belonging this type of low-balling airline puke was the only pleasurable paperwork I ever did.

You're right, effectively what they are doing is the same thing they term "scabbing" over in the officially-unionized airline world. I guess these wankers figured nobody would be looking, or that it mattered, if they tried doing it in the real one.

 

[DBCOOPER]

It is amazing to me how judgemental some people can be of other pilots. There is always someone that has a problem with the way another pilot does things. The fact that a retired airline pilot wants to continue flying because he enjoys it so much.....great, BFD. As long as the guy I'm flying with does his job well, and is a pleasure to share the cockpit with....I don't give a crap where they came from.

 

[DBCOOPER]

Oh and Catyaaak, I can't stand scabs either. But you should look up the real definition of one before you start throwing the word out there like that.

 

[CatYaaak]

Oh and Catyaaak, I can't stand scabs either. But you should look up the real definition of one before you start throwing the word out there like that.

I know what the real definition of what a scab is, which is why I didn't lable those in question "scabs" but rather wrote "effectively, what they are doing is the same...".....as in, "having the same effect as". The subject at hand was wages whether they be yearly salary or daily contract rates. Get it? Probably not. And of course I was talking about "lowballing" airline pukes, not airline pukes in general, many who I've flown with both in the corporate aviation and as a dues-paying airline puke myself.

You can call me judgmental all you want on this issue...you're absolutely correct. In a postion of choosing whether to hire someone or not I'll indeed judge between them in various ways, and it matters(ed) to me if someone tried to blatantly lowball their way into a job because they either didn't bother to find out what the industry standard rate was, or worse, because they thought they could pick up a boat payment etc., for a few days work during their off-time from XYZ airlines.

I had no respect for someone offering to do a $500 per day job back then for $150-$200...they were telling me that's how much they thought both they and the job were worth, or just plain too lazy to find their way out of their ignorance as to what they should be asking. It also told me how seriously they would take it..which wasn't very.

Over long years in non-unionized corporate aviation salaries and wages have gone up overall because most people know the whoring route hurts themselves and everyone in the industry. Corporate flying isn't about directly generating revenue so having the cheapest whore up front isn't the goal of the person in back, it's about getting what you pay for, generating loyalty, and getting the job done.

So yes, offering to do the job for peanuts ("whoring") in the non-unionized world does have the same effect "scabbing" does on pay rates in the unionized one. I'll judge that with pleasure.

 

[G100driver]

It is amazing to me how judgemental some people can be of other pilots. There is always someone that has a problem with the way another pilot does things. The fact that a retired airline pilot wants to continue flying because he enjoys it so much.....great, BFD. As long as the guy I'm flying with does his job well, and is a pleasure to share the cockpit with....I don't give a crap where they came from.

DB, you totally missed the point. In a day and age when guys are about to loose their homes and cannot feed there kids doing the job in which they were trained to for a retiree to take a flying job while drawing a full pension is total classless.

It is the same as the guys walking across the picket lines at Eastern and UAL. It is the mentality of, "I got mine, so F U." It is time for these guys to enjoy their retirerment. If they want to fly, go purchase, rent ect. In the mean time, just go home.

 

[semperfido]

DB, you totally missed the point. In a day and age when guys are about to loose their homes and cannot feed there kids doing the job in which they were trained to for a retiree to take a flying job while drawing a full pension is total classless.

It is the same as the guys walking across the picket lines at Eastern and UAL. It is the mentality of, "I got mine, so F U." It is time for these guys to enjoy their retirerment. If they want to fly, go purchase, rent ect. In the mean time, just go home.

complete BS...get real...rose colored glasses...its no diff now than it was back whenever....dog eat dog....can't wait til you get to the other side of 50.

 

[G100driver]

complete BS...get real...rose colored glasses...its no diff now than it was back whenever....dog eat dog....can't wait til you get to the other side of 50.

... a jerk is still a jerk .... The the beauty of being a Chief Pilot is, I d o no have to waer rose colored glasses. I can tell these guys to go home and enjoy there retirement and remind them that they have no class. When the 1000's of qualified furloughed guys are back at work then I will gladly look at retiree's. It has nothing to do with age, sir.

 

[DBCOOPER]

Catyaak,

I respect your views, I'm not saying that I completely disagree with everything you're saying. But, I will take a wild guess that you're not happy with the way your flying career has gone, for you to be so pissed off about something like a 60 year old retiree wanting to continue to fly airplanes is amazing. Don't forget that there are many 60 year olds out there that were Captains making 180K/yr, then to be bumped back to F/O, then to take a 35% paycut in THAT seat, then to lose their pension, then to be stuck for 2 years without any social security, still paying alamony payments.........Alot of guys out there need jobs to live, even if they are older. Many people feel that flying is the only thing they are good at. You seem to take this stand that if anyone comes looking for a job and they are a retired airline guy, he's a "scab" or as you like to say "whore". You are certainly entitled to your opinion, but you are a little out of bounds here.

And, by your theory, in his eyes....every single RJ pilot out their must be a "scab whore" as well. Lets say he's sitting in the left seat of his 737 and his F/O is on his last flight due to an upcoming furlough. Why? Because the RJ guys taxing out in front of them are now flying their routes for less than half of what they are flying it for. Dare you put all the RJ pilots out there in your same little category?? You most likely will. Hell, you might as well through the guys at Frontier, Spirit, JetBlue, Indy Air, into the same category. They are flying Airbuses for alot less than the guys at NWA, UAL, and USAirways are/were.

I'll venture a guess that you aren't much fun to fly with. You seem awfully uptight and of the opinion that if some pilot didn't take the same route as you did, they suck and you will have a word to label them with.

Lighten up Francis. Find a job environment that you enjoy, and go do it. Start by giving people the benefit of the doubt. I hope that you let out your steam on this web board and not at work, I can guarantee you that people at work don't want to hear someone complaining all day long about "how it should be according to me."

 

[Spooky 1]

Wow! G100driver sounds pretty upset over this issue. I guess 4500 hours and a CP title makes him an expert on right to work issues and age 60 politics that defy common sense in most cases. I wonder if his company has an HR department and subscribes to his age based approach to hiring the most qualified pilot. I am not suggesting that every retired airline pilots is worthy of being hired and if the job description includes experience in the corporate world, and especially if there is a specific aircraft experience requirement then yes that is the type of person that should be hired first.

However to suggest that a retired pilot has no right to seek employment and would be better off renting an airplane for his enjoyment or pleasure is so short sighted and stupid that one has to wonder where G100driver will be in a few years with that type of attitude? BTW what is a G100 anyway? Also, with only 4500 hours its not likely that G100driver was even around for the UAL and EAL debacles and if you don't know what your talking about, please don't bring it up in the first place. Maybe your father was there, but certainly not you.

In case G100driver has not noticed many of the current crop of airline pilots will not have any significant retirement income in the future. Since SS will not be available until they reach age 66 or 67, I see nothing wrong with seeking employment in a field where they might be best qualified. I do not subscibe to the "I can do it for less money" concept that has been discussed and although I have heard of this activity, I think it could be discouraged with just a little word to the wise if you get my drift.

 

[semperfido]

Catyaak,

I respect your views, I'm not saying that I completely disagree with everything you're saying. But, I will take a wild guess that you're not happy with the way your flying career has gone, for you to be so pissed off about something like a 60 year old retiree wanting to continue to fly airplanes is amazing. Don't forget that there are many 60 year olds out there that were Captains making 180K/yr, then to be bumped back to F/O, then to take a 35% paycut in THAT seat, then to lose their pension, then to be stuck for 2 years without any social security, still paying alamony payments.........Alot of guys out there need jobs to live, even if they are older. Many people feel that flying is the only thing they are good at. You seem to take this stand that if anyone comes looking for a job and they are a retired airline guy, he's a "scab" or as you like to say "whore". You are certainly entitled to your opinion, but you are a little out of bounds here.

And, by your theory, in his eyes....every single RJ pilot out their must be a "scab whore" as well. Lets say he's sitting in the left seat of his 737 and his F/O is on his last flight due to an upcoming furlough. Why? Because the RJ guys taxing out in front of them are now flying their routes for less than half of what they are flying it for. Dare you put all the RJ pilots out there in your same little category?? You most likely will. Hell, you might as well through the guys at Frontier, Spirit, JetBlue, Indy Air, into the same category. They are flying Airbuses for alot less than the guys at NWA, UAL, and USAirways are/were.

I'll venture a guess that you aren't much fun to fly with. You seem awfully uptight and of the opinion that if some pilot didn't take the same route as you did, they suck and you will have a word to label them with.

Lighten up Francis. Find a job environment that you enjoy, and go do it. Start by giving people the benefit of the doubt. I hope that you let out your steam on this web board and not at work, I can guarantee you that people at work don't want to hear someone complaining all day long about "how it should be according to me."

good post

 

[semperfido]

Wow! G100driver sounds pretty upset over this issue. I guess 4500 hours and a CP title makes him an expert on right to work issues and age 60 politics that defy common sense in most cases. I wonder if his company has an HR department and subscribes to his age based approach to hiring the most qualified pilot. I am not suggesting that every retired airline pilots is worthy of being hired and if the job description includes experience in the corporate world, and especially if there is a specific aircraft experience requirement then yes that is the type of person that should be hired first.

However to suggest that a retired pilot has no right to seek employment and would be better off renting an airplane for his enjoyment or pleasure is so short sighted and stupid that one has to wonder where G100driver will be in a few years with that type of attitude? BTW what is a G100 anyway? Also, with only 4500 hours its not likely that G100driver was even around for the UAL and EAL debacles and if you don't know what your talking about, please don't bring it up in the first place. Maybe your father was there, but certainly not you.

In case G100driver has not noticed many of the current crop of airline pilots will not have any significant retirement income in the future. Since SS will not be available until they reach age 66 or 67, I see nothing wrong with seeking employment in a field where they might be best qualified. I do not subscibe to the "I can do it for less money" concept that has been discussed and although I have heard of this activity, I think it could be discouraged with just a little word to the wise if you get my drift.

exactly and if i had an opening and the right guy walked through the door at the right time....he's In..no matter where he came from.

 

[G100driver]

Wow! In case G100driver has not noticed many of the current crop of airline pilots will not have any significant retirement income in the future. Since SS will not be available until they reach age 66 or 67, I see nothing wrong with seeking employment in a field where they might be best qualified. I do not subscibe to the "I can do it for less money" concept that has been discussed and although I have heard of this activity, I think it could be discouraged with just a little word to the wise if you get my drift.

Actually, I have noticed. I am not referring to the guys that are coming out of USAir or some situation like that. I empathize with the individual who lost his retirement through no means of his own. Would I look at that guy, you bet.

When I see a person, who collected his annuity and is still receiving the full benefit of his defined pension program, ie UAL/Delta retiree's, I am not really interested in him. As far as the money aspect of your arguement goes, you would think so, but it does not work. The Delta guy I was referring to in my previous post is completly clueless.

There are a lot of very qualifed guys out there who NEED work. Retiree's who collected their annuities and are receiving full pensions are NOT them. I know everbodies situation is different, but if you retired from the Big 4 with a 25+ year career you are not one of them as far as I am concerned. If you want to work, teach. Pass on you knowledge. I have taken classes from several former airline guys and nothing but respect with their ability and knowledge.

BTW what is a G100 anyway?

It is an Astra. When I signed up 3 or 4 years ago all the Astra names were taken. We have since upgraded our flight department.

Also, with only 4500 hours its not likely that G100driver was even around for the UAL and EAL debacles and if you don't know what your talking about

Funny you should say that. When I was a kid my next door neighbor used to work for the pre-Lorenzo Contiental. It is pretty sad when you see a guy you have known for your entire life have to sell their house and start over. So I can empathize with the dude who lost his retirement.

While I was not a part of it, I still can see the effects of such events and still meet people who were effected by these events.

As for the flight time, I will guess I should update.

BTW, I also hired a furloughee to fly with me when I 1st got hired to run my flight department. He was an old friend, he needed a job, and I knew that he would be a loyal employee who could handle not being in charge (except when it is his leg).

Finally, I am not upset. I know that I cannot change the world. There will still be self centered jerks out there. There will always be the 10%ers who make the professionals look bad. I am just here to point it out and hope that others who are in a position to hire and fire out here in corporate world will look long and hard at the people and their situations before you give someone an opprotunity.

I would be curious to hear what a current furloughee's at one of the Big 4 would have to say about a recent retiree taking flying jobs while they are still pounding the streets.

 

[CatYaaak]

Catyaak,

I respect your views, I'm not saying that I completely disagree with everything you're saying. But, I will take a wild guess that you're not happy with the way your flying career has gone, for you to be so pissed off about something like a 60 year old retiree wanting to continue to fly airplanes is amazing. Don't forget that there are many 60 year olds out there that were Captains making 180K/yr, then to be bumped back to F/O, then to take a 35% paycut in THAT seat, then to lose their pension, then to be stuck for 2 years without any social security, still paying alamony payments.........Alot of guys out there need jobs to live, even if they are older. Many people feel that flying is the only thing they are good at. You seem to take this stand that if anyone comes looking for a job and they are a retired airline guy, he's a "scab" or as you like to say "whore". You are certainly entitled to your opinion, but you are a little out of bounds here.

And, by your theory, in his eyes....every single RJ pilot out their must be a "scab whore" as well. Lets say he's sitting in the left seat of his 737 and his F/O is on his last flight due to an upcoming furlough. Why? Because the RJ guys taxing out in front of them are now flying their routes for less than half of what they are flying it for. Dare you put all the RJ pilots out there in your same little category?? You most likely will. Hell, you might as well through the guys at Frontier, Spirit, JetBlue, Indy Air, into the same category. They are flying Airbuses for alot less than the guys at NWA, UAL, and USAirways are/were.

I'll venture a guess that you aren't much fun to fly with. You seem awfully uptight and of the opinion that if some pilot didn't take the same route as you did, they suck and you will have a word to label them with.

Lighten up Francis. Find a job environment that you enjoy, and go do it. Start by giving people the benefit of the doubt. I hope that you let out your steam on this web board and not at work, I can guarantee you that people at work don't want to hear someone complaining all day long about "how it should be according to me."

Having a hard time with comprehension DB, or what?. Where did you get this fantasy that I'm pissed off at 60 year old retired guys who want to keep flying...more power to him. He/she ALWAYS has the benefit of the doubt with me. Please show me where I wrote that I was prejudiced against them and back up your allegation of me "seeming" that way. I specifically qualified the airline pilots I wrote about by saying they were "lowballing" ones..that's the subject at hand..pay...what they, or anyone, will work for vs. what's considered industry standard. Perhaps you're so hyper-sensitized and defensive about airline pilots that my repeated use of this clear and unmistakable adjective didn't register through your emotional response.

You write that "I seem to take this stand that if anyone comes looking for a job and he's a retired airline guy, he's a scab, or as you like to put it, a whore". Did it "seem" that way to you?....if it did, you need remedial reading classes, my friend, and I'm saying that because I'll consider your attempt to assign me this prejudicial age-and-background bias against a prospective pilot I may hire to your own lack of comprehension skills, rather than a purposeful attempt to drape me with a mantle of Royal Assholery. The fact is DB, I wrote nothing that even comes close to what you are accusing me of here.

But it's clear why you do put words in my mouth...(beginning with lame-o lead-in "it seems"..continuing to "I'd venture"...etc..) so you can extrapolate some fantasy of your own making regarding a set of personality traits you accuse me of possessing in order to enter a straw-man debate with yourself on things like "people have to work after 60". This is a sign of arrested emotional developement I'm sorry to say. Judging isn't the same as pre-judging DB. If a lowballing corporate puke tried for job versus a retired airline guy asking industry standard my hiring decision judgement would not change, I'd hire the airline guy. In my experience however, that scenario never happened, although the reverse did. This is not to say I never hired retired or between-job airline guys WHO WERE ASKING WHAT THEY WERE WORTH (perhaps if I spell it out bigger and plainly, you'll get it) because I did, and flew with some good ones.

And much as you'd obviously like to think I do in your little fantasy exercise of assigning me negative traits, I don't have a vague, nebulous theory that every RJ pilot is a "scab whore". Just what is a "scab whore" anyway? I know what a "scab" is, which presumes a union shop company and workers crossing a striking membership's picket line, and that's the only definition that I know of. At least when I was a dues-paying ALPA member it was....has that changed or something? This examples you list regarding this "theory" you say I must have (once again for the purposes of debating yourself) ...is nothing more than the mish-mash of competitive pricing, downsizing, or farming out routes that's part of the landscape of revenue-flying in a deregulated industry.

Your wild guess as to "how I am" (bitter, or something) is so off the mark it's pretty funny. But since you made this accusation I'll say that I love my career path, love where I'm at now, where I've been, who I've flown with, and even get paid a lot for doing it. Certainly, I don't judge someone about the route they've taken, if I did I'd have to get rid of most of my old college and high school flying buddies I've had for well over 20 years now that are mostly at the majors. To each his own, everyone has a different idea of what makes them happy. Flying for the airlines gave me a great set of experiences to draw upon and good friends, just like all the years of corporate flying have done. Airline flying has its good and bad points, just like corporate flying...it's not a competition. You should learn this.

And believe me, the last thing anyone would ever tell you about me in the cockpit or on the ground is that I'm "uptight". If anything they nudge me to see if I'm awake. I'm into comfort, and that includes being paid enough to be comfortable, and having a comfortable atmosphere amongst the crew. And since you mentioned complaining at work, that was the biggest reason I left the airlines.....nothing in my years flying corporate will ever equal the amount of complaining, bellyaching, and whining as I heard in airline cockpits. with so many self-appointed experts opining how the company or unions should be run, endlessly preaching "how it should be". That you would use my views on the single issue of undercutting industry standard wages into being an overbearing a$$hole in a mere 4 paragraphs is quite a feat in misrepresenting pretty much everything I wrote. Congrats.

The irony here, of course, is that here you are, no doubt an airline or former airline guy, bi1ching in your fantasy diatribe about me, who's only point is, and has ALWAYS been, that when I'm in the position of hiring corporate pilots, I'd rather pay them industry standard or MORE, and if they aren't asking it by a longshot and blatantly lowballing, then I don't want them wherever they are from. I'm not alone in this view in the corporate world, and you gnashing your teeth over it and deliberatly misrepresenting what I've written tells me that you're either very young or pretty green when it comes to this segment of aviation where you act as your own one-man union. Who are you to tell me I must hire the cheapest labor, when even my boss makes it clear he doesn't want that used as a criteria?

 

[Denizen]

"Royal Assholery"


ROFL That is a good one...I am going to co-opt that one...it is just too good to pass up.​

 

[snow-back]

Hmmm. Quite a debate. Looks like I've got my work cut out for me.

Just a note...I'm not retired, not even close. I've got 23 years until 60 and currently, my projected seniority at retirement is in the 10-15 range. Any job I may be offered will be given great consideration. When/if someone is interviewing me, I will also be interviewing them and the company. I have a feeling any negative "airline pilot" bias will be readily apparent. If someone labels me as an arrogant airline pilot or any other stereotype, I have no desire to work for that operation anyway.

Thanks for all who offer useful, logical advice.

T

 

[semperfido]

Hmmm. Quite a debate. Looks like I've got my work cut out for me.

Just a note...I'm not retired, not even close. I've got 23 years until 60 and currently, my projected seniority at retirement is in the 10-15 range. Any job I may be offered will be given great consideration. When/if someone is interviewing me, I will also be interviewing them and the company. I have a feeling any negative "airline pilot" bias will be readily apparent. If someone labels me as an arrogant airline pilot or any other stereotype, I have no desire to work for that operation anyway.

Thanks for all who offer useful, logical advice.

T

good post. hang in there at dal. it's always greener.