Leave Comair for JB, AirTran, ATA??

[LASvegas777]

What are peoples opinions on leaving Comair with 5 years of seniority, a Captain at 67.53 per hr. 50 seater (74.28 per hr. 70 seater) as of June 03 with around 1000 pilots below you out of 1600 for the likes of Jetblue or ATA or Airtran?? I ask because I havent heard of many senior pilots leave comair, asa or skywest for theses places even though everyone says JB, airtran, ATA are the places to go now. thanks for input

 

[Skank]

Do you have a job offer, or is this just a mental exercise?

 

[LASvegas777]

Just a mental thought.

 

[Otto_Pilot]

A good mental excercise

This is actually an intriguing topic.

When we were kids, no doubt we all fantasized about flying the "big jets" across the country or around the world. For young pilots it is incomprehensable to NOT consider a move to a larger airplane when the opportunity presents itself.

Now we face an economy and a profession which is undergoing change. Likely the major airlines will look vastly different 5 years from today then they did 5 years ago. The contracts, payrates, and benefits enjoyed by the airline pilot of the late 1990s are long gone. You may find that your Comair contract is very competitive with the contracts at the companies you are considering.

I would suggest you talk one of the dozens of furloughed major airline pilots who are coming to work for Comair this year. Many of those who I have had the pleasure to talk to tell me that Comair is their new home -- they have no intention of leaving.

Certainly our priorities change when we get married, have children, etc... but most of the people I've spoken with no longer care about the size airplane they fly, or making 6 figures in their second year. Instead they're anxious to fly modern equipment for a stable company, earning a fair paycheck -- nobody will get rich, but they will certainly live a good lifestyle.

AirTran, Jetblue, and ATA are all good companies but will they survive 30 years until you are ready to retire? The fact is you wont know what the right decision is until the day you turn 60. Pilots 20 years ago who were hired by USAir or United thought they had it made -- pilots 30 years ago who were hired by PanAm or Eastern thought they struck it rich. You just dont know.

My opinion? Unless you happen to live in an AirTran, Jetblue, or ATA crewbase, stick it out with Comair.

Just a thought from a furloughed TWA guy who would love to work for Comair.

 

[Ty Webb]

You may find that your Comair contract is very competitive with the contracts at the companies you are considering.

It's not close to AirTran's, at least in terms of pay. Our FO pay is roughly the same as Comair's Capt. pay, at least after your probationary year. I am a second year FO making $51.50 an hour, which bumps to $53.50 in 4/03. I should upgrade during the third year, and will be at $100./hr. Twelfth year pay per this contract is $152./hr and the average line here pays 85 hrs. Per Diem is $1.75/hr.

Yes, we have trip rig, duty rig, etc and a company-funded retirement contribution of 10.5% It's a pretty decent contract, in year 3 of 4.

I was lucky, being hired in one of the first classes after 9/11 I went right to a line, and have averaged 16-17 days off per month on commutable lines . . . . of course, you mileage may vary.

New airplane will be coming in 2004, either a B737/700/800 or A319/320.

 

[bobbysamd]

Comair v. the others you mentioned

This really is a good question, mental exercise or not.

I'm not a major fan of Comair the company. But I think that now it is a good place to hang your hat. You have a decent number and the place seems to be on solid footing. The others, especially JB, have great potential, but for now, I'd stay. When the economy gets better, you can revisit the issue.

Good luck with whatever you decide.

 

[ATA73Pilot]

Right now it is all about career stability.

Now is not the time to be at the bottom of anybody's seniority list.

If you are comfortable where you are at then I would suggest staying.

I too had the urge for bigger and better airplanes and a few years back made the jump from top of the list commuter dog to bottom of the list major.

It was fun flying something different....for a while. You know what....like anything else....it just becomes like every other airplane you have flown.

Now I have gone from living in base to commuter, the hotels in LAS, LAX, SFO, HNL are no different then the ones in (insert your hotels here), and I no longer enjoy the benefits of seniority in the left seat.

If I had been with a company like Comair, flying left seat, with seniority...I'm not sure I would make the change. When you factor in the extreme vulnerablity that this career is exposed to right now....I know I would stay put.

I now understand finally at this point what drives pilots to choose lifestyle over "the next best thing".

Just my 2 cents.

 

[Bluto]

A "mental thought"?

Vegas777, a "mental thought"? As opposed to...?

 

[General Lee]

Otto_pilot,

Well, too bad there aren't any furloughed Delta pilots at Comair. Oh that's right, that would have been a "CRM problem", just like over at ASA. (?)

Comair seems to have a great airline with nice planes and a diverse route structure. Since you won't be going to Delta from Comair, I think JB, AirTran, and ATA would be good choices. Jetblue will probably grow and continue to thrive, even though Song may stunt it's growth a bit. Airtran is also one that seems to be on the fast track---even though it's growth in ATL could be hampered by lack of gate space there. I am sure that Airtran could eventually find more places to put hubs eventually. ATA has a good hub at Chicago MDW, and does a lot of MAC Charters with the Military currently. ATA did have a considerable loss for it's size last quarter, but seems to have it's act together. It has nice planes and nice routes.

It all comes down to this: If you want stability--stay at Comair or go to JB or Airtran. IF you want big planes---go to ATA (757-300 and L1011's for the time being anyways..) If you want to go to Delta eventually in 5 years or so---go to ATA, JB, or Airtran and then get an interview. The Comair portion of your resume might still be questioned, but just come up with some BS story that you didn't have any control over your MEC at the time and that you wanted to leave so you could eventually get on with the BIG D.
That probably will be acceptable.

Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[flaps30]

gen lee

dude, get over it. With your terrific attitude you're starting to make me glad we didn't take you guys in.

 

[General Lee]

Flaps30,

Someday you will eat those words, trust me. Don't bet on Delta doing any worse, they still own you and pay for your checks. When things get better, and they will eventually, you will be the one wondering why you aren't flying those 767's into Bermuda. Sure, you like your schedule and enjoy your plane (the CRJ is a nice one), but you will care when you see the ASA guys benefiting. And you still can't own up to the fact that we helped you out and you can't do the same for our furloughs---You can't say it--can you? You are expanding and you can't let guys on at the bottom, not affecting you one bit. It will affect you someday in someway. Tell Lawson thanks.

Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[JayDub]

And you still can't own up to the fact that we helped you out and you can't do the same for our furloughs

I am sorry, maybe I missed something here. I thought it was the Delta Pilots that signed their TA while the Comair folks were on strike. Seems to me you took the bait ole Uncle Leo was offering there.

 

[General Lee]

Jaydub,

I don't think it played out like that, but what did you want us to do then? I am sure that it was over before you guys struck. We had enough on our own to negotiate, and you wanted us to negotiate yours too? We supported you with money and told Delta we wouldn't fly your routes. And now you can't help our guys in need. That is what it all comes down to---we helped you and you can't help us. Thanks.

Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[surplus1]

Re: A good mental excercise

Just a thought from a furloughed TWA guy who would love to work for Comair.

Just a thought from a Comair guy, .... we'd be happy to have you (if you're willing to give up your AA number).

 

[flaps30]

I won't hold my breath

Oh wow, the few ASA guys who do get hired when, 10 years from now. yea sure, they will give up ASA to go to the bottom of Delta just in time for another economic downturn. I can't figure why you have such an interest in the current Comair policy ??? All this noise for the 10-20 that might take the 18K/yr job ? Why don't you spend time bashing your own MEC for selling out and increasing the scope to 44%, did you vote on that ? Just like I didn't vote on the hiring of Delta guys. The senoir guys will always sellout the junior ones, lets see what happens with Song. You're dreaming if you think they will pay mainline rates.
JC doesn't give a rats asz if anyone wants to work for Delta. If your pilot group wasn't so short sighted and hell bent on keeping us out, we wouldn't be hiring 300+ a year. Please don't bring up how you supported the Comair strike with money, you didn't have a choice, ALPA paid it whether you wanted them to or not. I paid my ALPA dues and fully expected help from them during the strike. Guys like you continue to drive a wedge between pilot groups, I hope it helps you somehow. I have a class date with JetBlue and will be glad to get away from all this BS.

 

[surplus1]

It will affect you someday in someway. Tell Lawson thanks.

Bye Bye---General Lee

I've already told you what I think in another thread so I won't repeat it here.

While we're at it ..... thanks JC Lawson for doing the right thing.

PS. Tell Buergey (sp) ... no thanks.

 

[General Lee]

Flaps30 and Surplus1,

You guys are really cool.

First to Flaps30,

Ok, what? McFly? What are you talking about? Why would the "senior guys" sell out Song when they fly for Song? The 757 and 767 are not separate catagories. We have over 3000 757/767 pilots at Delta---all typed on it. They make up the largest group of pilots at Delta. The union does not have to take a pay cut if they do not negotiate it---the pay scales are NOT subject to Force mejeur. No one can hand us a pay cut if we don't want it. Do you understand yet? Now, we may want to help chip in ---but there would be a snapback --no doubt. Leo Mullin stated that no Non Union employees would take pay cuts. Hmmmm. well, that doesn't sound like we are doing that bad, does it? Wouldn't everyone have to chip in if it was that bad? If for some reason Dalpa decided to change the rates, there would also be a clause to allow the Song lines of time an extra 5 hours to make up the difference. Also, management stated that it would not separate the 757 and the 767 bacause they have HUGE flexibility with having 3000 pilots able to fly all 4 types of 757-767's (757, 767-200, 767-300Dom, 767-300ER). So, where did you overhear this gossip about Song taking a paycut? The press? They want labor to take cuts, and refuse to blame management for anything. Look at the United fiasco---it was all the pilot's fault---including trying to buy USair and making Avolar.
Don't believe everything you hear. And you think it will be how long before ASA guys get on with us? Well, it might be 4-5 years, but it really will be worth it. Everytime you see a Delta plane be sure to think about why you won't be flying it. There sure are a lot of them out there, especially in CVG. The answer is easy---Your MEC.

Surplus1,

Could you see Lawson as an MD88 FO at Delta? Neither can I, and that is why he is dangerous to all of you. He doesn't care about any of your junior pilots, only himself and his 2 or 3 hundred cronies who would never pass an interview at Delta.
Your growth was just boosted to 43% of our flying, and that isn't good enough. We will never give in to the unlimited CRJ70's and possible 90 seaters--because that would hurt the mainline by reducing our growth potential. We were supportive of you during your strike, and now you aren't supportive of our furloughs---it is as simple as that. Your co-hort Flaps30 doesn't think our furloughed guys would take an $18,000 a year job at the bottom of Comair. He obviously doesn't think much about his own situation, does he? I think there would be many takers, but we'll never know. Some people just love to fly. I do---everyday. So, keep thanking Lawson, because I know he will take care of you guys right through your next unsuccessful strike. (The Delta deal could have ensured you a pay raise--but hey, just try another strike in a couple years---we might chip in again to help you pay the bills----NOT) Good Day!

Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[flaps30]

general lee

as I said before, get over it ! I think you need some professional help.

Anyway, you never answered the question and since I have a week before my new job here it is.
What did the senior guys get in return for the scope increase to 44% ? They changed it 7% overnight !!! 37% to 44%, and even a democrat like you can do that math, its a bunch of flying.
You know they got something, what was it ?

 

[General Lee]

Flaps30,

I don't need professional help, on my days off I watch Dr. Phil. Anyways, what the senior guys got was a number-----a percentage number. After all of this crap blew up (9-11, force Manuer, 2 consecutive losing quarters...etc) we lost the percentage number of DCI flying. The senior guys or Dalpa negotiators wanted to again have an exact number for the percentage. So, in the end, they now have that number----43% that is the benchmark. Yes, I know there is a stipulation that in case Delta really heads south---the number could possibly go to 49%, but at that point ASA/Comair would be sold off for the $$.

We are currently doing other negotiations to benefit us---like the furlough arbitration and the CRAF flying. Apparently the CRAF flying will be VERY beneficial to Delta($$$$) and we have to negotiate who flies that and where crews stay etc. (Kuwait or Rome??etc) I also just read on another board that ASA guys are asking how they can contribute to our furlough fund. Wow, those guys know how to work it, and will be rewarded eventually.

Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[TriStar_drvr]

Back to the original question: It depends if you 're a gambling man. At ATA you could exceed the 50 seat RJ pay in a little over 16 months if you were hired today (assuming there are no contract concessions.) ATA has been around for 30 years, however that doesn't mean squat in the airline business, as it may not be around a year from now. However, if it does survive, you would most likely make more at ATA than at Comair.

So it all depends. Do you want security? Or are you willing to take a risk for possible higher financial returns? Or maybe you just want to fly bigger jets? Of course who's to say Comair won't be flying 737s or 757s in the future...