Leave AirTran for CAL?

[Scrapdog]

Intl and wide body is not all that--TRUST ME!!

It is very expensive to go and do all the things you want to do INTL. And for 30, 50, 60 k you will not be doing anything....

I would STAY !!!!

One attack and YOU just lost 110k a year and the 30-70K at CAL......

I have to completely scoff everything you just said. Your numbers are in the street. I don't care which way you go, but to get FACTUAL data on pay rates, here are the payscales straight from airlinepilotcentral.com:

CAL widebody F/O @ 5 years: 105/hr
Airtran F/O @ 5 years: 72/hr

CAL widebody captain @ 10 yrs: 183/hr
Airtran captain @ 10 yrs: 144/hr

And on a sidenote, CAL's contract is up for re-negotiation next year and it's going to be pretty nice (maybe not quite to FDX/UPS standards, but I'd imagine pretty close to it). Also, the hiring is going on like gangbusters at CAL and there are 92 aircraft on order with options from Boeing...25 787's and a plethora of NG 737's. Food for thought...

 

[AlbieF15]

Scrappy...

If he were starting tomorrrow, you might be right...but he's not. Here is his math:

Year 1 at CAL verses year 4 captain at AT...take a look at these numbers:
Start points:
CAL Year 1 Airtran 4 captain

30 Newhire 120
62 NB FO 124
73 NB FO 127
105 WB FO 132
115 WB FO 137
138 NB C 144
140 NB C 147
142 NB C 153
182 WB C 153
184 WB C 153


So...what I see a 90 k pay cut year 1, a 60 k pay cut year 2, and a 50 k pay cut year three. IF the upgrades continue....with age 60 or a downturn int he economy who knows...he has to get to his 8th year to break even and start making 30k a year more to make up for a LOT of losses early. Also--it will be learning new airline stuff, being junior again, etc verses sitting tight where you already know the lay of the land. Again--nothing wrong with jumping--but this guy is not comparing where he starts from--he's backing up and starting over. That is a huge difference.

 

[PCL_128]

here are the payscales straight from airlinepilotcentral.com:

CAL widebody F/O @ 5 years: 105/hr
Airtran F/O @ 5 years: 72/hr

CAL widebody captain @ 10 yrs: 183/hr
Airtran captain @ 10 yrs: 144/hr

Yes, but you won't be an FO at 5 years at AirTran. Instead, you'll be a CA making $120/hr, and that's with the current contract. With age-65 coming (doesn't really affect us, but affects CAL retirements quite a bit), I'd imagine that upgrade at CAL will run 7-8 years for a newhire, and that's assuming no furloughs between now and then (highly unlikely).

So, the real comparison for the next 10 years between the two would look something like this: (based on current rates for both companies, 88 hrs/mo)

Year CAL AirTran

1 31,680 45,408
2 65,472 59,136
3 77,088 64,416
4 100,320 69,696
5 110,880 126,720
6 120,384 130,944
7 123,522 134,112
8 146,784 139,392
9 147,840 144,672
10 149,952 152,064

Tot 1,073,922 1,066,560

So, really no advantage. If you factor in a furlough somewhere in the mix, then it's basically impossible to make up the lost income you would have had at AirTran. For someone that already has 3 years here, I just can't see how it would ever make financial sense to leave for a legacy. The legacy rates would have to shoot through the roof to make it worthwhile financially. Now, if you just can't live with yourself if you don't fly a widebody, then go for it. Otherwise, it just doesn't make sense.

Also, the hiring is going on like gangbusters at CAL

True, but there have already been over 1200 pilots hired at CAL in front of the newhires. Any merger or economic downturn could mean a furlough for several years. There's a big difference between getting hired at a legacy at the beginning of the cycle and getting hired after 1200 other guys.

 

[Uniform Shop]

I'd imagine that upgrade at CAL will run 7-8 years for a newhire, and that's assuming no furloughs between now and then (highly unlikely).

Why is it highly unlikely that there won't be furloughs at CAL in the next 7-8 years. It's the domestic demand that's slowing down not the international.

There could be furloughs at CAL but AirTran could be bought or merged too and that could cause furloughs. Who knows what might happen.

 

[PCL_128]

Why is it highly unlikely that there won't be furloughs at CAL in the next 7-8 years. It's the domestic demand that's slowing down not the international.

Historically, if you don't get in on the very front of the hiring wave, then you're almost certain to get furloughed. This isn't just true of CAL, but of any legacy carrier. If there is another terrorist incident or a large economic downturn, then CAL and the rest of the legacies will probably have to defer deliveries and park airplanes. Has everyone forgotten what we just went through? The same thing has happened for different reasons every decade, even back during the days of regulation. Yes, a newhire at AirTran faces the same risks, but the original poster in this thread already has 3 years under his belt at AirTran. He's basically furlough-proof at this point. To give that up to go to the bottom of another list is extremely risky.

 

[Scrapdog]

Scrappy...

If he were starting tomorrrow, you might be right...but he's not. Here is his math:

Year 1 at CAL verses year 4 captain at AT...take a look at these numbers:
Start points:
CAL Year 1 Airtran 4 captain

30 Newhire 120
62 NB FO 124
73 NB FO 127
105 WB FO 132
115 WB FO 137
138 NB C 144
140 NB C 147
142 NB C 153
182 WB C 153
184 WB C 153


So...what I see a 90 k pay cut year 1, a 60 k pay cut year 2, and a 50 k pay cut year three. IF the upgrades continue....with age 60 or a downturn int he economy who knows...he has to get to his 8th year to break even and start making 30k a year more to make up for a LOT of losses early. Also--it will be learning new airline stuff, being junior again, etc verses sitting tight where you already know the lay of the land. Again--nothing wrong with jumping--but this guy is not comparing where he starts from--he's backing up and starting over. That is a huge difference.

Albie - very good point about the starting out initially that I missed. I stand corrected!

 

[Clyde Frog]

My feeling is that many of us our deeply hurt by this TA, because it fails to reward the pilot group for what we do on a daily basis, above and beyond the contract at times, to make this thing work..

Then stop doing that.

 

[Clyde Frog]

If you use the extra time you have now to pick up extra trips, ...

While in mediated negotiations? No wonder the TA you got sucks.

 

[Lear70]

While in mediated negotiations? No wonder the TA you got sucks.

Albie doesn't work for us, he's a FedEx pilot.

On a more relative note, did anyone get the NPA blast email today?

Balloting to open "no later than Jun 27th"...?

Are you fu*king KIDDING ME??!! They're going to wait yet ANOTHER 10 days to open the balloting, THEN run it for yet another 21 days?

So much for having a NO vote done anytime soon. Just more wasted time. I wonder how long the recall effort people are going to hold off until they start acting.

 

[AlbieF15]

While in mediated negotiations? No wonder the TA you got sucks.

Thanks for straightening me out. I'm obviously a blithering idiot....

 

[Fedora]

It's always a tough decision and always a personal one for each of us. We don't know your situation or desires, so it's tough to get advice from out here. The economy can change at the drop of a bomb. Companies start to furlough, etc. AT has cash to last a while and you're not at the bottom of the list. CA has oportunities if thing continue to go well.
My wife and I have a plan when we get to these crossroads. Take a piece of paper and draw a line down the middle. Label each collumn with the airlines in question. Divide those two columns into a pro and a con list. Write down what each of you percieve as the good and the bad things for each company. when done, cross out the ones that cancell each other out for both companies, then compare the plusses and the minusses. You are sometimes surprised at the results, but if nothing else, it will bring out the things that are IMPORTANT TO YOU!
It sounds like the commute thing is a primo factor from what I've read so far. Congrats on the baby and good luck in whatever you choose for your future. I used to work at AT and would be about 25 on the seniority list if I had stayed, making a lot more money than I do now. That said, I love being an international wide body Captain and don't see 4 on and 3 off as a good schedule any more. QOL should be an issue too!
Good luck!

 

[Uniform Shop]

Historically, if you don't get in on the very front of the hiring wave, then you're almost certain to get furloughed. This isn't just true of CAL, but of any legacy carrier. If there is another terrorist incident or a large economic downturn, then CAL and the rest of the legacies will probably have to defer deliveries and park airplanes. Has everyone forgotten what we just went through? The same thing has happened for different reasons every decade, even back during the days of regulation. Yes, a newhire at AirTran faces the same risks, but the original poster in this thread already has 3 years under his belt at AirTran. He's basically furlough-proof at this point. To give that up to go to the bottom of another list is extremely risky.

Trust me, I haven't forgotten what we just went through. Just look at my Avatar. I probably know more about it then most but to say that CAL will most likely furlough in the next 7-8 years is an overstatement. Even though we have hired 1200 pilots in the last 3 years that only covers half of the retirements in the next 10 years. If we shrank back to the 2002 level we will still need hire more pilots. Now if someone gets hired here in 4-5 years from now I would totally agree with you. I'm not saying it won't happen because I'm well aware that it could but I think CAL is a pretty good bet for the next couple years.

Let's hope I'm right because I don't have anymore room in my closet. :beer:

 

[Clyde Frog]

Thanks for straightening me out. I'm obviously a blithering idiot....

If you say so...

 

[Captain X]

Here is a post from Pocono Pilot on 2/24/07 before screwing up her interview with CAL and completely tubing it (which is EXTREMELY difficult to do, especially if you're female). She must have really pooched it...


Quote:
I agree.

With all the retirements, CAL could be the most secure major out there. Also, there is a good chance that CAL will be the highest paid eventually with a new contract.

I hope to be there soon
Obviously Pocono got burned by CAL and is now nasty and bitter (very standard for an immature - "I deserve to be there because I'm a chick" type attitude).




Obviously Pocono got burned by CAL and is now nasty and bitter (very standard for an immature - "I deserve to be there because I'm a chick" type attitude).

Owned. :beer:

 

[Lear70]

I prefer *spanked*, myself, given her gender,,,

But I'm just naturally inclined that way. Your mileage may vary.

 

[thor2j]

Scrappy...

If he were starting tomorrrow, you might be right...but he's not. Here is his math:

Year 1 at CAL verses year 4 captain at AT...take a look at these numbers:
Start points:
CAL Year 1 Airtran 4 captain

30 Newhire 120
62 NB FO 124
73 NB FO 127
105 WB FO 132
115 WB FO 137
138 NB C 144
140 NB C 147
142 NB C 153
182 WB C 153
184 WB C 153


So...what I see a 90 k pay cut year 1, a 60 k pay cut year 2, and a 50 k pay cut year three. IF the upgrades continue....with age 60 or a downturn int he economy who knows...he has to get to his 8th year to break even and start making 30k a year more to make up for a LOT of losses early. Also--it will be learning new airline stuff, being junior again, etc verses sitting tight where you already know the lay of the land. Again--nothing wrong with jumping--but this guy is not comparing where he starts from--he's backing up and starting over. That is a huge difference.

You have a few of your numbers a little out. You dont show a blended rate for the CA on NB so you need to add about another $9 an hour. July first we get something like a 3% raise. Also most importantly we have a 12.75% B fund that is not computed anywhere. No matching just straight up. Another thing with any luck we will get a substantial pay raise in the upcoming contract.

 

[Lear70]

You have a few of your numbers a little out. You dont show a blended rate for the CA on NB so you need to add about another $9 an hour. July first we get something like a 3% raise. Also most importantly we have a 12.75% B fund that is not computed anywhere. No matching just straight up. Another thing with any luck we will get a substantial pay raise in the upcoming contract.

You guys have a 12.75% B-fund, we have a 10.5% B-fund at AAI, so the actual addition to the base salaries is only a 2.25% difference.

Still doesn't make much sense to me... I certainly wouldn't leave AAI for CAL if I was a CA (or was about to be on the next award which just came out and is right at 3 years seniority for the bottom 8 or so 717 CA's). Just my .02 cents.

 

[Fedora]

BTW, Albie, I agree with your way of figuring out the lost pay and the break even point. I had a friend go to US Air years ago, and he encouraged me to join him. I asked for the scale, and using your method, I figured my break even point was at seven years. I was 50 at the time, and didn't want to risk it for a chance of making the "big money" for just 3 years.
Guess what? My buddy was laid off after 3 years and moving his household twice! Going to the bottom of the list at a legacy carrier is always risky business if you ask me. I'm not getting rich at my company, but I am enjoying being a WB Captain and flying all over the world. I think I made the right choice.

 

[Murphy]

Friend of mine at AirTran is leaving at the 1 yr point to go to CAL. Starts training next month. He won't have to commute anymore.

 

[Rook]

BTW, Albie, I agree with your way of figuring out the lost pay and the break even point. I had a friend go to US Air years ago, and he encouraged me to join him. I asked for the scale, and using your method, I figured my break even point was at seven years. I was 50 at the time, and didn't want to risk it for a chance of making the "big money" for just 3 years.
Guess what? My buddy was laid off after 3 years and moving his household twice! Going to the bottom of the list at a legacy carrier is always risky business if you ask me. I'm not getting rich at my company, but I am enjoying being a WB Captain and flying all over the world. I think I made the right choice.

Yeah buddy I think you did too:beer:

 

[pianoman]

Well, regardless of salary, not commuting is almost always where it's at. Heck I hardly every work! Now if I just had money to spend on my days off....