Learjet 31 or CE-550??

[CapnVegetto]

Comparing airplanes for the new boss. From what I've seen, the LR-31 costs more to acquire, but is so much more airplane that a CE-550. I've flown a 35, but not a 31. What's the difference? I know range, perf. yada yada yada, but given a choice, which one would you want?

From what I've seen, the LR-31 costs more per hour to operate, but less per mile. If it were up to me, I'd get the Lear. But it's not up to me. Anyone have some real world hourly operating costs to compare?

I'd love to talk to a part 91 operator of either aircraft to discuss operating costs. PM me and I'll give you my phone number. Thanks much folks!!

 

[h25b]

Comparing airplanes for the new boss. From what I've seen, the LR-31 costs more to acquire, but is so much more airplane that a CE-550. I've flown a 35, but not a 31. What's the difference? I know range, perf. yada yada yada, but given a choice, which one would you want?

From what I've seen, the LR-31 costs more per hour to operate, but less per mile. If it were up to me, I'd get the Lear. But it's not up to me. Anyone have some real world hourly operating costs to compare?

I'd love to talk to a part 91 operator of either aircraft to discuss operating costs. PM me and I'll give you my phone number. Thanks much folks!!

I'd be happy to talk to you about the Learjet 31A...

Our biggest problem with it is baggage space and trying not to destroy the cabin dragging bags in to the back... Performance wise it's hard to beat in its class. You will always be able to climb straight to 410 and it will pretty much do Mach .78 all the time. If you want to land with at least 1000# it will only fly about 2 hrs. and 45 minutes. No real gee whiz avionics but it's a very solid and reliable system. Make sure you get an aircraft that is on MSP, JSSI might be less expensive but IMHO MSP Gold is the only way to go and will run you about $320/hr. for both engines. I wouldn't get too wrapped up about getting the aft locker but if the a/c you want happens to have it great. Ours is pretty much just used for engine covers and a tool set.

On the flip side I would have to say that the Citation products have a better maintenance program and with our 31A running a DOC of about $1169/hr. (assuming high average east coast fuel of $3.80/gal.) I would think the Citation would be cheaper. We budget about $200/hr. for maintenance and that was almost exactly what we ran this past year. Plan on probably around $230 or a little more if you're off all warranty or maybe a little less if you already have in house maintenance personnel. All of our maintenance is contracted with a local shop...

As far as consumables... Expect brakes to last around 250-300 landings (even though I got 400 out of this last set) and replacement costs if I remember right were about $8000 for exchange/overhaul. A new set of tires will run about $2100 installed (including NDT, etc...). Make sure your windshields are in good condition because when it comes time for new ones watch out...

 

[Rokit88]

If you want to get into smaller >4000 feet. Go with Citation. Your not going to save much time if you have to stop every couple of hours for gas. And then that adds on cycles, which I'm sure is expensive for both AC. I'd personnaly go with the Citation for many reasons:

1 . Baggage space in the Citation is hard to beat for a plane that size. Especially if the boss likes to go golfing. I've personally put about 4 sets of full size golf bags in the nose. And then you still have the whole aft baggage hold.

2. Insurance costs. Insurance in the Citation has to be cheaper than the Lear.

3. Range. I don't have exact numbers, but the citation has to have longer legs, if just a little bit.

4. Citations were built for short runways.. Low ref speeds and a long, fat wing.

Thats my 2 cents.

-Rokit88

 

[h25b]

Our insurance for the 31A at $4,200,000.00 Hull and $100,000,000.00 liability is 32K/yr...

 

[CRAZY LEGS]

"I've flown a 35, but not a 31. What's the difference? I know range, perf. yada yada yada, but given a choice, which one would you want?"

Workhorse just like the 35, avionics and autopilot are rock solid. True pleasure to fly. C&D DOC numbers for 2003 with fuel at 2.50 gal

LR-35 $1480.00 nm-$3.45
LR-31 $1140.00 nm- $2.75


"If you want to land with at least 1000# it will only fly about 2 hrs. and 45 minutes."

Pull it back to .74 and you can get 1400 nm out of it 3hrs +


"If you want to get into smaller >4000 feet. Go with Citation. Your not going to save much time if you have to stop every couple of hours for gas"

- You can work 4000' strips all day long in a 31. Landing distance at max landing weight SL 2800', max t.o distance at mtow 3500'

Bottom line- The 31 is about as economical as they come and is a true perfomer. You will go faster and higher in the 31 and you can fill the tanks and seats without having to worry about W&B. I'm ignorant when it comes to Citations, there are just to many to keep track of, but I doubt there are many mission profiles it can complete that the 31 can't.

 

[sydeseet]

I've flown both.

The CE-550 is a slow POS, period. I'd take one over a King Air product but it is not a Lear 31A by any means. Don't get me wrong, it's an okay airplane for what it costs but it is not a true jet airplane. This is not a "fill the seats, fill the tanks" aircraft which gets annoying to the boss.

The lear 31A is one of the sweetest flying jets I've ever operated, out of a total of eight models. An FMS and one of the best bang for buck avionic packages out there make it a very nice airplane to fly 2-3 hours missions in. I took ours from the East Coast all the way to Anchorage and back via the Sun Belt over five days and didn't feel too wrung out after getting home. Yes, we made fuel stops but you will in the Cit II also. The baggage situation is not the greatest and the ol' Lear cigar tube cabin is not favored by evey passenger but it's a great little airplane.

Hands down get the 31A. The extra money spent on acquisition will be realized again when it comes time to upgrade to a 40XR.

Demo both and you'll see what I mean.

 

[h25b]

"If you want to land with at least 1000# it will only fly about 2 hrs. and 45 minutes."

Pull it back to .74 and you can get 1400 nm out of it 3hrs +

You'd have to be right on LRC profile and get right up to altitude to accomplish this, but it could be done...

 

[USC***]

I've flown both. The Lear 31 is more fun than the C550(Bravo). Both have nice avionics/FMS. I don't know about the Cit II's, it's probably the steam gages, but the Bravo has the avionics package.

As far as range, we'd go from IAD to DAL in the LR31 about 1000 miles in the summer, but coundn't often make it in the winter. If the WX was bad at DAL, you'd need a fuel stop. The Bravo you can get about 1500 miles out of it in zero wind conditions with adequate reserves.

Hope this helps

 

[HawkerF/O]

CaptV, I left you a Voice mail earlier, so call me when you get a chance. In the mean time, Syd is right on.(Sydeseet, do you know who Sydnee Steele is? Wow!!) CaptV, which 550 are you talking about? If it's a CII, you'd be wasting your time looking at that thing if you wanted any range out of an airplane and you intend to have passenger. A friend of mine use to fly for a car dealer out of Kansas City in a II, and they would go to IAH 2Xs a week. They could not make it with 7 people without stopping in ADS for some more gas. It was just a dog.

I flew a C550 for about 100-150 hours, and I got a little better mileage out of it than that, but it was very rare for us to have more than 3 passengers, and most of the time it was usually just 1 or 2 max. The Citation is a great airplane for hopping around a region of the country, such as the NE or the Midwest or the south, but due to its speed and cabin size, using it as a fully domestic aircraft would not be prudent. The 31 does a little better, just because it is much faster and you won't spend too much time in it no matter what power setting you use. I've got about 300 hours in 35/55 series lears, and they are good airplanes and cost efficient. The 31A is the cheapest corporate jet to operate on a per mile basis. You might also look at a Falcon 10/20; just make sure all the ADs, relevent SBs and inspections are C/W.

Also, people are comparing these airplanes on an hour by hour basis, and you will not get an accurate picture of operating costs by doing it like that. The speed difference is too signifigant for a per hour comparison. The 31 is into the winds and on speed much quicker than the Citation, so a per mile comparison would be a much more accurate picture. If you have to do a per hour comparison, I would use a .75:1 ratio or take 3/4ths of an hour of Lear time for every hour the Citation flies. A 2/3rds (.66:1)ratio might not even be out of line.

Here is a panel pic of each aircraft (well equipped). You tell me which one you would rather be in.

http://www.controller.com/images/controller/fullsize/72690133.jpg

http://www.controller.com/images/controller/fullsize/72382761.jpg

I've flown both.

The CE-550 is a slow POS, period. I'd take one over a King Air product but it is not a Lear 31A by any means. Don't get me wrong, it's an okay airplane for what it costs but it is not a true jet airplane. This is not a "fill the seats, fill the tanks" aircraft which gets annoying to the boss.

The lear 31A is one of the sweetest flying jets I've ever operated, out of a total of eight models. An FMS and one of the best bang for buck avionic packages out there make it a very nice airplane to fly 2-3 hours missions in. I took ours from the East Coast all the way to Anchorage and back via the Sun Belt over five days and didn't feel too wrung out after getting home. Yes, we made fuel stops but you will in the Cit II also. The baggage situation is not the greatest and the ol' Lear cigar tube cabin is not favored by evey passenger but it's a great little airplane.

Hands down get the 31A. The extra money spent on acquisition will be realized again when it comes time to upgrade to a 40XR.

Demo both and you'll see what I mean.

 

[Rokit88]

Which ever one pays more!