Lear crash in Connecticut

[LJDRVR]

I had the pleasure of being Captain on Jarrod's first leg as pilot flying in a Learjet. It was my privilege to share a cockpit with him many times after that. When I was assigned a short notice Houston to Keflavik flight after being up all day, he was the only FO I would do the trip with. It was a real pleasure showing him the excitement and stress of North Atlantic Learjet OPS. Jerry was a consumate aviator and sparky. I never had to worry about him in the airplane. He really was a joy to fly with.

As I get older, the list of people I have known who are killed in airplanes only gets larger. Rob at Loring, Tom in New Mexico, now this. It's truly the only part of aviation I absolutely hate. If any of you who knew Jarrod from Great Lakes or anywhere else and would like information concerning the service, please PM me.

To my brother aviator; Jerrod Katt.

I hope you're in a better place.

I hope it didn't hurt.

I'll always remember.




-Courage is the price that life extracts for granting peace. The

soul that knows it not, knows no release from little things.

The soul that knows it not knows no release from little things.

Knows not the livid loneliness of fear,

Nor mountain heights, where bitter joy can hear

The sound of wings.

-Amelia Earhart

 

[BigFlyr]

Nope... The Lear 31 and 55C were the first with Delta fins... (not 100% sure which came first, both came out around 1989). The 35 only has delta fins as an aftermarket upgrade.



Uh... As far as ruggedness, I'd take my French made Falcon over a Lear in severe turbulence anyday. Not because of the ride, but because of the structural integrity. (The ride would be better too, but that wasn't the point I was trying to make.) Before you flame, I have 1,000 hours in Lears and nearly triple that in Falcons, so I have flown both. I don't like the French anymore than the next American, but they do build a d@mn good airplane.

Looks like you know more about Lears than I do... I thought the 35 came out before the 31 and the 55...

Sorry, didn't mean to bust on all French airplanes, I was just making a dig on Airbus in particular... Oh yeah, it was the tail that fell off that one!

 

[banned username 2]

Looks like you know more about Lears than I do... I thought the 35 came out before the 31 and the 55...

The Lear 35 DID come out before the 31 and 55... The 35 was never certified with Delta Fins... There is a company who sells them as an aftermarket add on... The first Lear certified with the Delta Fins was the 31 and/or 55C

 

[CRFLyPutt]

What Turbo stated was in reference to the Lear 35... which is probabaly true as compared with the 20 series Lears... I believe the 35 was the first Lear to have "Delta Fins" on the aft belly of the fuselage for added stability, among other stabilizing devices added to the wings.

Umm, sure he was!!

Delta fins on a 35?? Sure about that? I thought these were aftermarket additions only? Out of the 6 hundred some odd 35's that were built how many came from the factory with fins?

 

[CRFLyPutt]

Nope... The Lear 31 and 55C were the first with Delta fins... (not 100% sure which came first, both came out around 1989). The 35 only has delta fins as an aftermarket upgrade.

It was the Lear 31 back in 1988.

 

[CRFLyPutt]

The original Lear wing with some minor changes for the 35 includes a two foot extension for added lift and a newly designed contoured leading edge for low speed handling characteristics not to mention improvements such as The Century III program which incorporated a new camber, then there was Softflite which incorporated Stall Strips on the inboard section of the wing and Stall fences along with BLEs to increase VMO. So the Lear 35A albeit not the best, exhibits some decent low-speed handling for the performance and range it offers. The original wing was adapted from a Swiss fighter called a P.19 with eight wing spars incorporating fail safe features, which allows for an inflight failure of a major component such as a spar without incapacitating the airplane. The only problem with this wing is Dutch Roll which is due to the inherent design which includes those big fuel tanks out on the wings and the small rudder. When those tip tanks have fuel in them and you are slow you have to avoid dutch roll at all altitudes by keeping the yaw damper on after takeoff and until flare and the speed to touch down at Vref+10 KIAS. One witness on the news said that the aircrafts wings were rocking, so if you want to speculate, then think about that. In fact the instructors at the flight school Simuflite to be exact have stated that the tail is more likely to "fall off" before the wing does. The airport (KGNL) has a permanent NOTAM out for bird activity. Having personally flown with him, I know for a fact that the Captain had at least 1500 hours in the 35 and was well trained at Simuflite each year. Unfortunately, this wasn't enough this time for what ever reason. So hey at least do some homework before you try to get a rise out of someone. Your turn. [/B][/QUOTE]

Please, stop I feel like I'm sitting in recurrent again!!

 

[WrightAvia]

Lets not make assumptions, instruct, or speculate other than the fact that something went wrong, let the NTSB and the FAA do their job. We might all learn something from this. The reports didn't even get the fuel capacity right if thats any indication of how sketchy everything is at this point. We do not know what caused this terrible tragedy other than the fact that the aircraft was on a visual and hit short of the runway. So let's give it some time. Then we can offer corrections.

A guy could assume he stalled it or a wing fell off. What do you think? Anybody care to speculate?

First you got guys that complain about the posts not being aviation related enough. Then someone comes on to tell pilots to NOT talk about an aviation related subject. Of course I was freaking pulling his leg. "Oh....Please don't speculate!"

Sorry...I don't like the "BAN" people. The "we oughta ban this and we oughta ban that", people. The "don't talk about this, don't do that", people. The "let's make up a NEW RULE" and the "there oughta be a new FEDERAL LAW", people. I don't mind following FAR's, trying to abide by state and federal laws, following my marriage vows, following work rules. But just telling people DON'T, just because...just gets my goat. Here's a DON'T for you...If you didn't like reading the speculative posts, you DON'T have to, just change the channel.

People ARE going to talk about prominant aircraft crashes in the news.

Geeze, I'm begining to think Timebuilder has brains up all you guys...he's the only one that got it.

I would have probably never posted on this thread. I don't know squat about lear jets. I'm not typed in a jet. We don't have lear jets where I work at. I was just reading the thread just like I do all interesting threads and couldn't stand seeing someone say "DON'T!".

 

[Gulfstream 200]

I agree.

Its FINE to specualte about accidents. everyone has an opinion and the freedom to state it!

Lets just do it with taste (2 guys were killed), make it positive, toss around some ideas that we can learn from. The discussion got good with experienced guys giving good solid advice on visual approaches, etc...

now, to start talking about WINGS falling off a Lear 35...well....

 

[Deftone45075]

Although the "wing falling off" was obvioussly a bit of a joke, It started a discussion in which I learned a few things about Lear's. I never knew the original had 8 spars.

I have never had the pleasure of flying one, however have been told that as far as instability, they make my Jetstream look like a 172.

I can imagine that a Lear with some component failures, would be a lot to handle on a quick flight, down at low altitudes. In any case, and whatever the cause, I think we will end up learning something from this.

 

[enigma]

Except for #11. Most of my time is in Lears and easy to fly is not a good description compared to other aircraft.

Maybe I'm looking back with rose colored glasses, (it has been about five years since I sat in a 35) but I didn't find a 35 hard to fly. I admit that it will bite the stupid, but I find the actual flying qualities very easy to like. I'm speaking of things like control feel, etc. The airplane will lose energy very quickly at low speed, but a little discipline and dedication to maintaining the proper airspeed is all that is necessary to keep everything well inside the envelope.

Most of my Lear time is 55, with only about 1000hours in a 35, but I wouldn't hesitate to fly a 35 for the rest of my career. Matter of fact, I'd trade the Maddog in on a 35 in a heartbeat. Talk about a poor flying airplane. The -80 is a truck. Heavy controls, slow response, slow climb, etc, etc, etc.

regards,
enigma

 

[Gulfstream 200]

Learjets are very stable airplanes.

They get a bad rap because they are frequently a pilots "first jet". No, its not a girly jet like a Citation, but its certainly not some untameable beast that some make it out to be.

Its just an airplane.

 

[bigD]

No, its not a girly jet like a Citation

LOL!

 

[CRFLyPutt]

Maybe I'm looking back with rose colored glasses, (it has been about five years since I sat in a 35) but I didn't find a 35 hard to fly. I admit that it will bite the stupid, but I find the actual flying qualities very easy to like. I'm speaking of things like control feel, etc. The airplane will lose energy very quickly at low speed, but a little discipline and dedication to maintaining the proper airspeed is all that is necessary to keep everything well inside the envelope.

Most of my Lear time is 55, with only about 1000hours in a 35, but I wouldn't hesitate to fly a 35 for the rest of my career. Matter of fact, I'd trade the Maddog in on a 35 in a heartbeat. Talk about a poor flying airplane. The -80 is a truck. Heavy controls, slow response, slow climb, etc, etc, etc.

regards,
enigma

Actually the 55 and 31 with the longhorn wings require a bit more planning than the 35's especially in a descent. Case in point, when I first started flying the 55 the person who we are talking about, Jerrod the guy who was killed this past week, was with me on a trip to Harlingen with a medical team from one of he hospitals we fly for. I wanted to start my descent early, being it was night and I really wanted to get down early. Jerrod being more experienced suggested I wait at least another 15-20 miles before I initiated the descent. I said OK, but didn't feel comfortable doing this. Result , I went screaming over the top of airport at 2000 feet with no hope of geting the aircraft down spoilers and all. Jerrod who was more experienced and could have made it without a thought sat over in the right seat shaking his head, laughing his ass off saying, "OK maybe that was a little too much for you to handle at this stage of the game."

 

[Timebuilder]

Result , I went screaming over the top of airport at 2000 feet with no hope of geting the aircraft down spoilers and all.

It's easy to get behind the airplane when you first start flying jets, particularly faster ones like the Lears. I didn't find the 55 to be more of a challenge, though. If anything, I found it to be much more well-mannered than the 35. It has better (newer) avionics, and less rolling inertia because of the lack of tip tanks. This is important if you have a cheap fuel deal at home, and have to fly to a NY metro area airport to pick up the customer. You plan to land just under max landing weight, and if it's a short flight, you still have fuel in the tips that make for some interesting control experiences until you become familiar with the 35!!

I had one experience in the 55 where I got a little closer to the airport than I wanted to be, and I was still up at 10k. Spoilers and gear helped me get it right down to 1000 AGL, and with a left base to final turn I was right on the vasi. I tell you this to mention that it wasn't the fact that I was in the 55 at the time that caused me to be close and high, it was the same lack of planning that I might have had in the 35 with the boss acting as my FO. Maybe he was waiting to see when I would initiate my descent, or maybe he had been enjoying the ride, too. He never admitted either possibility. He DID get on my back about using the brakes to get off at the ramp, instead of rolling out an extra 2000 feet to slow down. I got the "brakes cost $200" lecture.

In any event, I'm glad you had a good learning expereince. In the end, Jerrod will give us all some advice on flying again, maybe saving one of our lives in the process.

 

[WrightAvia]

http://www.wfsb.com/

For those looking for more news on the lear crash in CT...there are some video clips on this page. You have to scroll down below the "today's headlines" section to find them.

The video captioned "JET HAD NO PREVIOUS SAFETY INCIDENTS" is pretty interesting.

 

[FlyingSig]

Matter of fact, I'd trade the Maddog in on a 35 in a heartbeat. Talk about a poor flying airplane. The -80 is a truck. Heavy controls, slow response, slow climb, etc, etc, etc.

I'll take that trade. I've got a 35 with a FC-200 that I'd gladly give up to climb back into my old -88 Maddog.

 

[AviateYou]

Please, stop I feel like I'm sitting in recurrent again!! [/B][/QUOTE]

Thanks Chief! That comes from Geza Szurovy "Learjets" A good read, TRY IT!

 

[WrightAvia]

Believe it or not Sig, we got a guy that just quit a full time fractional gig flying Lears out out of St. Louis, that is trading that job in to come back and fly scheduled freight in Caravans. I don't know why he didn't stick with it another year or two, I'm sure they would have eventually typed him. Homesick maybe? Maybe tired of the Part 91 rules with fractional operations? Maybe the SIC jet time didn't add up? I guess I'll find out from him soon enough.

He quit here about two years ago to go fly jets and I haven't talked to him since he left, nor since he's been back. He is in training now to get back on 135 single turbine flying.

Based on what you read here on the bulletin boards and hear out on the streets, it looks like the perception of job satisfaction can have many facets.


AviateYou, why did you delete your last post?

 

[captjim]

"High Flight"


Oh! I have slipped the surly bonds of earth
And danced the skies on laughter-silvered wings;
Sunward I've climbed, and joined the tumbling mirth
Of sun-split clouds - and done a hundred things
You have not dreamed of - wheeled and soared and swung
High in the sunlit silence. Hov'ring there,
I've chased the shouting wind along, and flung
My eager craft through footless halls of air.

Up, up the long, delirious, burning blue
I've topped the wind-swept heights with easy grace
Where never lark, or even eagle flew -
And, while with silent lifting mind I've trod
The high untrespassed sanctity of space,
Put out my hand and touched the face of God.

 

[captjim]

I was informed about the loss of my friend today. "Jerry" was a classmate, roomate, friend and all round good guy.

To Elgin and the family, you have my deepest condolences and will be in my prayers.

Tailwinds to you Jerry.

 

[LRplt]

Hey Charles Rice,
Congrats on your upgrade to Captain!! Did you just upgrade recently?

 

[CRFLyPutt]

Hey Charles Rice,
Congrats on your upgrade to Captain!! Did you just upgrade recently?

Hey Andy Bergstedt, how are you? Since you know the answer to the above question already lets cut the small talk and ask you about working those soft days with no off day pay. I don't know about you, but in my humble opinion working on your days off with no off day pay can put a guy in a position where at the end of the month there's more going out than the paycheck can bring in especially if you're already living beyond your means, know what I mean?

 

[LRplt]

You hit the nail on the head!

 

[banned username 2]

Hey Andy Bergstedt, how are you? Since you know the answer to the above question already lets cut the small talk and ask you about working those soft days with no off day pay. I don't know about you, but in my humble opinion working on your days off with no off day pay can put a guy in a position where at the end of the month there's more going out than the paycheck can bring in especially if you're already living beyond your means, know what I mean?

LOL... You guys are starting to sound like a bunch of UAL pilots during the summer of 2000...

 

[Citationkid]

That sucks I new those guys. They used to come down to GED every once in a while. Just found out the names and the N# a day or 2 after it.

 

[AviateYou]

Anyone have an update or report?

 

[JJay]

Anyone have an update or report?

http://www.theday.com/eng/web/newstand/re.aspx?reIDx=28747117-98FF-48B2-8591-6BFA63C4E8E4

 

[Badger]

Lrjet @ GON

Went up there this week and had the chance to speak to some folks that had been working the morning of the accident. The general concensus was they shot the straight-in, ended up about 1/2 way down the runway with only the wheels sticking out of the clouds (low ifr, those familiar with GON know about the way those AM clouds behave there). Then the "visual" approach turned into a home-made knife-edge 360 to get back around to land on the straight-in runway @ <100 AGL. Knife-edged the tip tank through the 1st home then cartwheeled... unfortunate but we'll see what the NTSB "experts" say.

Another item I found interesting in the most recent article on the accident...

“I do not see it being pilot error,” said Suzanne Gebel, Hutchinson's sister, who said her brother had been flying for 30 years. “My brother could fly into that airport blindfolded.”

... This brings up a good point, I know this is true where I am. The home airport or one of great familiarity is one where you think you've got it all figured out. Getting back to the circling procedures, especially in a jet, this is not the time to get creative.

We don't live long enough to make all of the mistakes ourselves, learn from others.

 

[AviateYou]

JJay & Badger, thank you...

 

[Timebuilder]

Update

http://www.ntsb.gov/NTSB/brief.asp?ev_id=20030814X01339&key=1

If you don't see the runway where you expect to see it when you break out, or if you lose your orientation while maneuvering on a visual, then by all means, go missed and get some altitude.

See my new post regarding two guys I know who died on Friday, in sadly similar circumstances.

BE SMART!!!