Lear crash in Connecticut

[sydeseet]

1.) Speculation will get us nowhere. It also may incorrectly educate the uneducated on this board so PLEASE avoid the temptation to "shoot in the dark."

2.) Gonna have to back up Falcon Capt here, you could march an army across a Lear wing spar. Anything is possible, but this is a long shot - a "shot in the dark" if you will.

Time, the FAA, and the NTSB will tell. For the sake of our fallen commarades, their family's, and our profession let's keep this factual.

3.) Good post Turbo - the uneducated (and the educated for that matter) can always use a reminder.

 

[Charles Rice]

My Prayers to Friends and family,

Good Points Turbo. My experience (lots of visual approaches in 35's and 55's) is that visuals out of a standard pattern are no harder than approaches in a 172. It is the straight in approaches that will really bite you. For those pesky straight ins, I learned the hard way ( I landed long once, reeeeeeaaaaaaal long) to be stabilized using the same parameters that you use.

For all of you who aspire to fly jets, save Turbos list. Those parameters WILL keep your behind out of trouble.

Regards,
Enigma

Except for #11. Most of my time is in Lears and easy to fly is not a good description compared to other aircraft.

 

[banned username 2]

Most of my time is in Lears and easy to fly is not a good description compared to other aircraft.

I have to agree... The Lear was my first jet, and I'm glad it was, makes everything else I have flown since seem very easy!

 

[AviateYou]

A guy could assume he stalled it or a wing fell off. What do you think? Anybody care to speculate?

WrigthAvia yeah that's it, I am sure you have figured it out. Your ignorance is only overcome by your inability to accommodate constructive criticism as I am sure you are just trying to solicit a reaction here. I'll take the bait, I know the National Inquirer hired you right? Stalled? Sure that's possible. Wing fell off? Doubtful, if you know just a little bit about how the original Learjet wing was designed. Maybe you can offer your vast wisdom and assumptions to the crash investigators, I am sure they would love to hear from you, maybe one of them likes Heavy Metal music and you can dress up in that garb you attached to your Log in.

The original Lear wing with some minor changes for the 35 includes a two foot extension for added lift and a newly designed contoured leading edge for low speed handling characteristics not to mention improvements such as The Century III program which incorporated a new camber, then there was Softflite which incorporated Stall Strips on the inboard section of the wing and Stall fences along with BLEs to increase VMO. So the Lear 35A albeit not the best, exhibits some decent low-speed handling for the performance and range it offers. The original wing was adapted from a Swiss fighter called a P.19 with eight wing spars incorporating fail safe features, which allows for an inflight failure of a major component such as a spar without incapacitating the airplane. The only problem with this wing is Dutch Roll which is due to the inherent design which includes those big fuel tanks out on the wings and the small rudder. When those tip tanks have fuel in them and you are slow you have to avoid dutch roll at all altitudes by keeping the yaw damper on after takeoff and until flare and the speed to touch down at Vref+10 KIAS. One witness on the news said that the aircrafts wings were rocking, so if you want to speculate, then think about that. In fact the instructors at the flight school Simuflite to be exact have stated that the tail is more likely to "fall off" before the wing does. The airport (KGNL) has a permanent NOTAM out for bird activity. Having personally flown with him, I know for a fact that the Captain had at least 1500 hours in the 35 and was well trained at Simuflite each year. Unfortunately, this wasn't enough this time for what ever reason. So hey at least do some homework before you try to get a rise out of someone. Your turn.

 

[BigFlyr]

Except for #11. Most of my time is in Lears and easy to fly is not a good description compared to other aircraft.

What Turbo stated was in reference to the Lear 35... which is probabaly true as compared with the 20 series Lears... I believe the 35 was the first Lear to have "Delta Fins" on the aft belly of the fuselage for added stability, among other stabilizing devices added to the wings.

Doubtful that a wing fell off... it wasn't assembled in France...

One thing for sure, as in most accidents... If the pilots survive, you never know the truth. If the pilots die, the NTSB determines what happened regardless if it was true or not.

 

[Timebuilder]

Aviate You apparently knows his Lear stuff! If I wanted to pull the wing of of a 35 by any means other than the procedure for a service removal, I'd start with two bulldozers. If that didn't work, I'd get two BIGGER bulldozers!!

I'm not sure, but WrightAvia might have been yankin' your chain there. Just a guess.

Now, about bird activity: are we talking large or small? Was anything reported on the radio about an engine ingestion or a strike? I know the windshield can take a pretty good hit when the Lear is slowed to approach speed.

I'm sure we will learn something from this crash, but I'm left scratching my head over this compared to other accident situations.

Sticky note: there is an interesting analysis of the Payne Stewart crash on cable these days, where the investigator's trail is well documented and explained. Worth watching.

 

[banned username 2]

I believe the 35 was the first Lear to have "Delta Fins" on the aft belly of the fuselage for added stability, among other stabilizing devices added to the wings.

Nope... The Lear 31 and 55C were the first with Delta fins... (not 100% sure which came first, both came out around 1989). The 35 only has delta fins as an aftermarket upgrade.

Doubtful that a wing fell off... it wasn't assembled in France...

Uh... As far as ruggedness, I'd take my French made Falcon over a Lear in severe turbulence anyday. Not because of the ride, but because of the structural integrity. (The ride would be better too, but that wasn't the point I was trying to make.) Before you flame, I have 1,000 hours in Lears and nearly triple that in Falcons, so I have flown both. I don't like the French anymore than the next American, but they do build a d@mn good airplane.

 

[Bob]

"I believe the 35 was the first Lear to have "Delta Fins" on the aft belly of the fuselage for added stability"

That would be the 55C Model. Then they we incorporated into the 31, 60 and 40 series.

I haven't seen enough information to speculate on a cause; and I normally let the NTSB boys do that. I helped them on an investigation when we lost a Lr35 and they are some pretty sharp cookies. Eye witnesses usually see a midair explosion that never occurred or in the words of one "expert" I heard talking at an accident site: "They turned downwind, lost ground speed and stalled".

 

[Timebuilder]

That would be the 55C Model.

From what I have been told, the gameplan on the 55C was to have the plane certified without the yaw damper. [Edit: the fins in question were supposed to do such a good job of stablizing the airplane that it would not need a yaw damper]. The FAA said no, you don't have to have TWO (dampers) on the 55C, but you need at least one.

It's a good thing, too. I had the damper go on me one day, and that sucker will dutch roll with the best of 'em, even with the "fins".

 

[Hawker rider]

Now that we're also talking pieces of advice on this sad post I have one for ya.

Don't hesitate to go-around!! In case of pushing it, just give it some power and fly around the pattern or get another vector for an approach.

If you come in hot,high and fast, you'll need a lot more runway than what you would think you need! i'm guilty on this subject, more than once. trying to save a few bucks in fuelburn should never make you push a (bad) situation.

P.S. this doesn't necessarily have ANYTHING to do with the accident, just like i think the poster that was talking about the wing falling off, wast just stating his belief that any conclusions will be reached by the NTSB and FAA, and a lot of thigs could have happened, but hopefully once the cause gets out we will all learn from it.

 

[LJDRVR]

I had the pleasure of being Captain on Jarrod's first leg as pilot flying in a Learjet. It was my privilege to share a cockpit with him many times after that. When I was assigned a short notice Houston to Keflavik flight after being up all day, he was the only FO I would do the trip with. It was a real pleasure showing him the excitement and stress of North Atlantic Learjet OPS. Jerry was a consumate aviator and sparky. I never had to worry about him in the airplane. He really was a joy to fly with.

As I get older, the list of people I have known who are killed in airplanes only gets larger. Rob at Loring, Tom in New Mexico, now this. It's truly the only part of aviation I absolutely hate. If any of you who knew Jarrod from Great Lakes or anywhere else and would like information concerning the service, please PM me.

To my brother aviator; Jerrod Katt.

I hope you're in a better place.

I hope it didn't hurt.

I'll always remember.




-Courage is the price that life extracts for granting peace. The

soul that knows it not, knows no release from little things.

The soul that knows it not knows no release from little things.

Knows not the livid loneliness of fear,

Nor mountain heights, where bitter joy can hear

The sound of wings.

-Amelia Earhart

 

[BigFlyr]

Nope... The Lear 31 and 55C were the first with Delta fins... (not 100% sure which came first, both came out around 1989). The 35 only has delta fins as an aftermarket upgrade.



Uh... As far as ruggedness, I'd take my French made Falcon over a Lear in severe turbulence anyday. Not because of the ride, but because of the structural integrity. (The ride would be better too, but that wasn't the point I was trying to make.) Before you flame, I have 1,000 hours in Lears and nearly triple that in Falcons, so I have flown both. I don't like the French anymore than the next American, but they do build a d@mn good airplane.

Looks like you know more about Lears than I do... I thought the 35 came out before the 31 and the 55...

Sorry, didn't mean to bust on all French airplanes, I was just making a dig on Airbus in particular... Oh yeah, it was the tail that fell off that one!

 

[banned username 2]

Looks like you know more about Lears than I do... I thought the 35 came out before the 31 and the 55...

The Lear 35 DID come out before the 31 and 55... The 35 was never certified with Delta Fins... There is a company who sells them as an aftermarket add on... The first Lear certified with the Delta Fins was the 31 and/or 55C

 

[CRFLyPutt]

What Turbo stated was in reference to the Lear 35... which is probabaly true as compared with the 20 series Lears... I believe the 35 was the first Lear to have "Delta Fins" on the aft belly of the fuselage for added stability, among other stabilizing devices added to the wings.

Umm, sure he was!!

Delta fins on a 35?? Sure about that? I thought these were aftermarket additions only? Out of the 6 hundred some odd 35's that were built how many came from the factory with fins?

 

[CRFLyPutt]

Nope... The Lear 31 and 55C were the first with Delta fins... (not 100% sure which came first, both came out around 1989). The 35 only has delta fins as an aftermarket upgrade.

It was the Lear 31 back in 1988.

 

[CRFLyPutt]

The original Lear wing with some minor changes for the 35 includes a two foot extension for added lift and a newly designed contoured leading edge for low speed handling characteristics not to mention improvements such as The Century III program which incorporated a new camber, then there was Softflite which incorporated Stall Strips on the inboard section of the wing and Stall fences along with BLEs to increase VMO. So the Lear 35A albeit not the best, exhibits some decent low-speed handling for the performance and range it offers. The original wing was adapted from a Swiss fighter called a P.19 with eight wing spars incorporating fail safe features, which allows for an inflight failure of a major component such as a spar without incapacitating the airplane. The only problem with this wing is Dutch Roll which is due to the inherent design which includes those big fuel tanks out on the wings and the small rudder. When those tip tanks have fuel in them and you are slow you have to avoid dutch roll at all altitudes by keeping the yaw damper on after takeoff and until flare and the speed to touch down at Vref+10 KIAS. One witness on the news said that the aircrafts wings were rocking, so if you want to speculate, then think about that. In fact the instructors at the flight school Simuflite to be exact have stated that the tail is more likely to "fall off" before the wing does. The airport (KGNL) has a permanent NOTAM out for bird activity. Having personally flown with him, I know for a fact that the Captain had at least 1500 hours in the 35 and was well trained at Simuflite each year. Unfortunately, this wasn't enough this time for what ever reason. So hey at least do some homework before you try to get a rise out of someone. Your turn. [/B][/QUOTE]

Please, stop I feel like I'm sitting in recurrent again!!

 

[WrightAvia]

Lets not make assumptions, instruct, or speculate other than the fact that something went wrong, let the NTSB and the FAA do their job. We might all learn something from this. The reports didn't even get the fuel capacity right if thats any indication of how sketchy everything is at this point. We do not know what caused this terrible tragedy other than the fact that the aircraft was on a visual and hit short of the runway. So let's give it some time. Then we can offer corrections.

A guy could assume he stalled it or a wing fell off. What do you think? Anybody care to speculate?

First you got guys that complain about the posts not being aviation related enough. Then someone comes on to tell pilots to NOT talk about an aviation related subject. Of course I was freaking pulling his leg. "Oh....Please don't speculate!"

Sorry...I don't like the "BAN" people. The "we oughta ban this and we oughta ban that", people. The "don't talk about this, don't do that", people. The "let's make up a NEW RULE" and the "there oughta be a new FEDERAL LAW", people. I don't mind following FAR's, trying to abide by state and federal laws, following my marriage vows, following work rules. But just telling people DON'T, just because...just gets my goat. Here's a DON'T for you...If you didn't like reading the speculative posts, you DON'T have to, just change the channel.

People ARE going to talk about prominant aircraft crashes in the news.

Geeze, I'm begining to think Timebuilder has brains up all you guys...he's the only one that got it.

I would have probably never posted on this thread. I don't know squat about lear jets. I'm not typed in a jet. We don't have lear jets where I work at. I was just reading the thread just like I do all interesting threads and couldn't stand seeing someone say "DON'T!".

 

[Gulfstream 200]

I agree.

Its FINE to specualte about accidents. everyone has an opinion and the freedom to state it!

Lets just do it with taste (2 guys were killed), make it positive, toss around some ideas that we can learn from. The discussion got good with experienced guys giving good solid advice on visual approaches, etc...

now, to start talking about WINGS falling off a Lear 35...well....

 

[Deftone45075]

Although the "wing falling off" was obvioussly a bit of a joke, It started a discussion in which I learned a few things about Lear's. I never knew the original had 8 spars.

I have never had the pleasure of flying one, however have been told that as far as instability, they make my Jetstream look like a 172.

I can imagine that a Lear with some component failures, would be a lot to handle on a quick flight, down at low altitudes. In any case, and whatever the cause, I think we will end up learning something from this.

 

[enigma]

Except for #11. Most of my time is in Lears and easy to fly is not a good description compared to other aircraft.

Maybe I'm looking back with rose colored glasses, (it has been about five years since I sat in a 35) but I didn't find a 35 hard to fly. I admit that it will bite the stupid, but I find the actual flying qualities very easy to like. I'm speaking of things like control feel, etc. The airplane will lose energy very quickly at low speed, but a little discipline and dedication to maintaining the proper airspeed is all that is necessary to keep everything well inside the envelope.

Most of my Lear time is 55, with only about 1000hours in a 35, but I wouldn't hesitate to fly a 35 for the rest of my career. Matter of fact, I'd trade the Maddog in on a 35 in a heartbeat. Talk about a poor flying airplane. The -80 is a truck. Heavy controls, slow response, slow climb, etc, etc, etc.

regards,
enigma