Lear 60 vs. 45

[Lead Sled]

...but folks with a gentle approach will get good life out of them.

That, Ultrarunner, is the difference between a "pilot" and an "airman".

'Sled

 

[Sphrynxlla]

So can you ever cruise at .81 without the winglet buzz?

 

[Sphrynxlla]

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[ultrarunner]

So can you ever cruise at .81 without the winglet buzz?

Sure, do it all the time at 370 and below. MMO starts it's decrease above 370 and ends up at .78 at 430 and above.

 

[Sphrynxlla]

MMO decreases? that is weird i have never seen that happen. Is that a published limitation.. reason i am asking i am going to 60 school this monday.

 

[ultrarunner]

Yes, it's a published and taped mmo limitation. Very common in Learjets. It's likely how they met buffet margins during certification.

It's a non-issue in other jets that were well thought out, like Dassaults designs.

 

[vixin]

"I know the flex guys don't really care about them, and hammer them all the time, but folks with a gentle approach will get good life out of them."

Thats funny I care about them. I have never flown with a pilot at Flex that didnt. The only time I have sen the brakes "hammered" / or applied firmly is on a short runway or ASE and like. When stopage is assured we let of the brakes. So please dont say we dont care. Because 99% of us do. Maybe not the one you saw on a particular day.

 

[Sphrynxlla]

huh... i flew 35s and 36s... they didnt have that. I guess u are referring to the new lears with winglets?

 

[ultrarunner]

"I know the flex guys don't really care about them, and hammer them all the time, but folks with a gentle approach will get good life out of them."

Thats funny I care about them. I have never flown with a pilot at Flex that didnt. The only time I have sen the brakes "hammered" / or applied firmly is on a short runway or ASE and like. When stopage is assured we let of the brakes. So please dont say we dont care. Because 99% of us do. Maybe not the one you saw on a particular day.

You're right, I shouldn't have said the Flex pilots don't care. I was just looking at the data on the number of landings the Flex guys are getting, vs. the non-Flex fleet of 60's. The difference is incredible. So maybe it's technique or Flex is going into short runways all the time.

 

[Sphrynxlla]

ultrarunner....is it just on the newer lears?

 

[ultrarunner]

ultrarunner....is it just on the newer lears?

The winglet buzz? Yeah, it's pretty much a standard deal on the 31/55/60 series.

I can speak for the 28/29 series, since I have never flow that series. It's not really an issue on the 31, but the 55 and 60 wings are pushed pretty hard as mentioned earlier in this thread, and at the heavy weights and higher altitudes, you will get a bit of "rumble" as you approach MMO. Just keep the power back the first hour and you're fine.

 

[vixin]

I would say more short runways and TR's being pinned. I am sure other operators dont fly for as long with them pinned. Thats because of the flying we do. Our maint. is top notch. We just need the time to get it done.

 

[ultrarunner]

Pinned TR's. OK, bring me up to speed. I have just over a year in the 60, are the TR's prone to needing to be pinned on a regular basis? I haven't had a fault yet.

 

[vixin]

A normal corp operation I would say it wouldnt happen all that often. The Flex operation they get pinned occasionally. Thats also when we go to ASE 4/5 times that week with repo's to SMO. Just kidding on that, but my point is there are other reason why we may or may not go through the breaks a little quicker then most. Plus it is better to plan on an inadvertant TR stow by getting stopped then to baby the breaks on a 5-6000 ft runway. Nothing like using minimal breaking and then having a TR stow with the thrust still there. It is like a sling shot. The end of the runway seems a little closer for some reason. I think most of us like to be sure the plane is stopping then we let off the breaks. When we go to Dulles the breaks are hardly used.

 

[LJ45]

Wing buzz

No problems at all in the 45...better winglet design and more wing area. The wing on the 45 is a "new" wing" even though it looks like the old longhorn wings. The 45 MMO is .81 all the way up to FL510. No wing buzz at any altitude, speed or weight.

The 31a MMO does decrease at altitude also to .78 but it has no buzz due to the light weights.

When you get to .81, or by accident a little pass .81, in the 31a you will know by the rumble, not so in the 45. Due to new cert. requirments the 45 has a larger margin before things start to happen pass the MMO

just a little more info!