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lawsuit: ID checks unconstitutional

dash8driver

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ok, WTF, over?!?! who is this loser and how much gall do you have to have to think like this after what just happened?

i would like to find out how to contact this guy and send him a letter... what an idiot.

Suit challenges airline ID requirements

July 19, 2002 Posted: 9:40 AM EDT (1340 GMT)

SAN FRANCISCO, California (Reuters) -- A prominent civil libertarian sued the U.S. government and two major airlines Thursday, claiming that security requirements that compel U.S. citizens to show identification before flying are unconstitutional.

In a lawsuit filed in federal court in San Francisco, John Gilmore, co-founder of the Electronic Frontier Foundation, said that requiring ID from travelers who are not suspected of being a threat to airport security violates several amendments to the U.S. Constitution.

The lawsuit alleges that the regulations restrict freedom of travel, permit intrusive searches without good cause and violate the Freedom of Information Act because they have not been published in the Federal Register.

Although the ID requirements have been in effect since 1996, under the Computer Assisted Passenger Prescreening System (CAPPS) program, officials have increased their enforcement since the September 11 hijack attacks on New York and Washington, the lawsuit said.

Gilmore was prevented from flying by both UAL Corp.'s United Airlines and Southwest Airlines Co. on July 4, U.S. Independence Day, when he refused to produce ID or undergo extensive security screening, he told Reuters. As a result he hasn't flown since September 11 last year.

"It seemed obvious to me that the day we celebrate our freedom and independence would be a good day to see how much freedom we have left," he said.

Airline officials were unable to identify the specific regulation requiring identification, calling it an "unwritten" rule," the lawsuit says. Passenger trains and buses have similar restrictions, the suit said.

The Web sites of the Federal Aviation Administration and the Transportation Security Administration both say photo ID is required to travel, according to the suit.

But the passenger information section of the FAA site says airlines can allow people to travel without requiring ID if they use additional security measures.

Gilmore, who launched the Electronic Frontier Foundation in 1990 to lobby and educate about individual rights in cyberspace, said U.S. citizens have the right to travel anonymously.

Citizen dossiers

"There is no evidence against the vast majority of Americans," as to criminal activity, he said. "Yet they are being identified, tracked, and searched nevertheless.

"This policy violates decades and centuries of court decisions about the rights of innocent Americans," he said. "The mere demand for an ID is a search, which the Fourth Amendment protects us from."

The lawsuit claims the government, under CAPPS II, is preparing to combine travel booking and payment information with data from banks, credit-reporting agencies and other sources and integrate it with lists of suspected terrorists and criminals.

"Your life history will be gathered and scanned, using secret criteria, whenever you book a flight or arrive at an airport," said William Simpich, Gilmore's attorney. "This is the kind of data aggregation people have been fighting for 50 years or more and it's completely unacceptable."

A so-called "no-fly" list created by the FBI and Transportation Security Administration (TSA) has already been abused and used to harass innocent citizens who happened to have names that match those on the list, the lawsuit alleges.

"They're using September 11 as a stalking horse to enable the government to implement a much more comprehensive system of electronic dossiers on American citizens than has ever been done before," said Edward Hasbrouck, a San Francisco-based privacy and consumer advocate and author of travel guides. "CAPPS was in operation on September 11 and it didn't work."

The lawsuit names as defendants U.S. Attorney General John Ashcroft and Tom Ridge, Homeland Security chief; as well as the heads of the FBI, the Transportation Department, the Federal Aviation Administration, the TSA; and United and Southwest airlines.

Spokespeople from the U.S. Attorney General's, TSA and Homeland Security offices, as well as United, said they had no comment, while officials from the other government agencies were unavailable to comment.

Angela Vargo, a spokeswoman for Southwest, said executives would look at the suit. "After what our country has been through in the past few months, frivolous lawsuits such as this are ridiculous," she said.
 

Ted Striker

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This numbnuts needs a tune up. Beat him down!!!
 

dash8driver

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ok found john gilmore's email address along with the email addresses of the rest of the people in that organization.

John Gilmore is at ***DELETED***

you can also find the rest of the contacts at that company at

http://www.eff.org/contact.html

i'll be writing him a letter soon, i hope others will too.

[Edited to remove person's email address]
 
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troy

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I found (the) John's E mail address from an article off of the Net called "What's wrong with content protection "http://google.yahoo.com/bin/query?p=john+gilmore&hq=site:www.chguy.net
 
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RightBettor

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The BS flag...

What a bunch of horse shi+!! I took a law course in college and remember going over cases because of the whole screening issue that started in the 1970s. Well, guess what... the courts determined (at the time) that a search at an airport screening check point was not a violation of the Bill of Rights because one voluntarily subjects him/herself to the search. In fact, you are not required to be searched, at all! You have an absolute right to refuse any search of your person or property. You simply turn around, walk out of the airport, and find other means of transportation. It's not like you are being visited at home by the Gestapo. There are a multitude of ways to get form point A to point B. Tell this bozo to charter his own private jet or drive his betwetting a$$ to his destination!!

My fellow Americans never cease to amaze me. People seem to forget that getting on an airplane is not a right... much like driving on public roads is not a right... it is a privilege. You get caught DUI and you lose your PRIVILEGE to operate a motor vehicle on public roads. It's really that simple. With every right we have comes a responsibility. Finally, this guy can file a lawsuit for anything he wants. Wether or not he will win is another story... it's just too bad companies (read consumers) have to foot the bill for a defense.

Yet another reason we need a "loser pays" tort system!!!

Regards,
RightBettor
 

328dude

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Just got done sending him a "Please remove the navel lint from your craniam" letter.

If you don't like it, Freakin walk.
 

Tim47SIP

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No suprise

Look where the moron is from! One of the most liberal screwed up areas of the country. Although I was born there, it has definitely become the land of fruits and nuts! So he doesn't want inocecent people to be ID'ed and we are only supposed to Check suspicious people. I gues that would be another law suit! Only in America.

""There is no evidence against the vast majority of Americans," as to criminal activity, he said. "Yet they are being identified, tracked, and searched nevertheless"

Wasent everyone up in arms just a few weeks ago about profiling, which he is suggesting?? Did I say Moron, ya I guess I did. OK, I'm done. I am now going to email this yo yo. But remember, for all of you that do email him, he can use the email in court to prove whatever. So be carefull in what you say.
:mad:
 

Flydaplane

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Maybe this guy should sue 7-11 for ID checks when he buys beer, Movie theaters for ID checks for R rated (or X) movies. What about banks for asking for ID to cash a check. What a bonehead!
 

flynhigh31

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"Beware the Leader who bangs the drums of war in order to whip the citizenry into a patriotic fervor, for patriotism is indeed a double-edged sword. It both emboldens the blood, just as it narrows the mind. And when the drums of war have reached a fever pitch and the blood boils with hate and the mind has closed, the leader will have no need in seizing the rights of the citizenry. Rather, the citizenry, infused with fear and blinded by patriotism, will offer up all of their rights unto the leader and gladly so. How do I know? For this is what I have done. And I am Caeser." - - Julius Caeser


Think twice before you give up your Constitutional Rights! Those same rights that men and women fought and died for to protect!
 

dogg

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amen flynhigh31.

The current level of ridiculous requirements being churned out by federal and state agencies sickens me. It is time for history to be a requirement to be an American. When all of our rights are gone in the name of being "safe and secure" and another event occurs as it surely will, we will all look at each other like a flock of sheep running over a cliff and wonder why we did it. We will find that every thing that being an American means will have been detroyed and we will be no different than all of the other socialist states that exist in the world.

Remember it is not only our right to question authority it is our DUTY. It is high time that we put an end to the trashing and diluting of our most sacred document, THE DECLARATION OF INDEPENDANCE


Live free or die period
 

chperplt

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Remember it is not only our right to question authority it is our DUTY. It is high time that we put an end to the trashing and diluting of our most sacred document, THE DECLARATION OF INDEPENDANCE

Where does it say in the Declaration Of Independence that it's our right as an American to be a faceless, nameless individual?

So, by your logic, it's a violation of our rights when a movie theater asks for ID to prove a person is over 17, so they can see an "R" rated movie? It's a violation of our rights when a store clerk asks for ID to purchase alcohol? It's a violation of our rights when a police officer stops you and asks for your ID?


The safety of the public is a little more important that the "rights" you perceive the Declaration Of Independence gives you. If your "rights" are being violated so much by an airline asking you for your ID so they can match your ticket, with you, then you have the "right" to chose a different mode of transportation.


By the way... Before you start throwing the Declaration of Independence around, make sure you know how to spell it properly.
 
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dash8driver

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this is hardly a violation of the constitution. its just an ID check, a small step in security. its there to protect you and the other passengers, its not some major consipracy for the government to monitor everyone for some evil plot.

asside from it assisting in providing security against hostile pax, it also makes sure that the person holding the ticket is the person that's supposed to be using the ticket. without an ID check any person that steals your tickets can use em without fear of getting caught. if ID checks were unconstitutional just think of what will happen the next time someone steals your checkbook or credit cards. after you liberate your rights for ID checks with your bank, why dont you let us play with your checkbook...
 

eriknorth

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In fact, you are not required to be searched, at all! You have an absolute right to refuse any search of your person or property. You simply turn around, walk out of the airport, and find other means of transportation.
F'in A, man. Right on! These people have way too much time on their hands to dig up this stupid crap. You don't have to be doing something wrong to be checked for something. If you go to a gas station, the policy, around Atlanta at least, is that you have to show ID for cigarettes if you are under 26 years old. Well, how do you know if someone is 26 if you don't check their ID? I really hope this guy loses the case horribly. People like that need to put that energy into something more productive than that, like staring at walls and shutting the heck up. Man, I need an aspirin. I hate this kind of stuff...
 

skypine69

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This topic is quite the double edged sword. While I agree that the ID checks are in fact constitutional, how far do we let it go? I will need a lawyer (not an attorney, but a lawyer) to verify this but I believe that it is required to have some form of ID on you at all times while in public. I am under the understanding that if you are walking down the street and a peace officer asks you for your ID you must present it. If not you are subject to arrest. Of course this does not happen often, but do you really want the government to have that power? I laugh at all the people who wear there IDs around their neck at the airports nowadays. In fact in the last few months I have stopped wearing my Company ID when I am jumpseating in just my pilot shirt (no tie, hat, bars). I now keep it in my pocket and present it to the gate agent and capt when needed. I ask you, how easy will it be for the TSA to see all the sheep walking around with their IDs hanging around their neck and implement a requirment that when at an airport you must display your ID? How would feel about that?
It is good to be patriotic and easy to denounce what this guy is doing as frivoulous, but I beleive that part of what he is trying to do is make people realize that very slowly personal freedoms are being taken away from the general public. Remember, this country is founded on the belief that 2 sides can have different opinions and still coexist. If you dont want to have to listen to his views you can move to any number of countries where if you have a differing view, you will be shot.
 

flynhigh31

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"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty, and the pursuit of Happiness. That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed. That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness."

As a people, you have every right to question authority when that same authority infringes upon your unalienable and Constitutional Rights. It doesn't matter what anyone else thinks should happen. You Have That Right.
 

flynhigh31

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dash8driver said:
this is hardly a violation of the constitution. its just an ID check, a small step in security. its there to protect you and the other passengers, its not some major consipracy for the government to monitor everyone for some evil plot.
I bet this guy is willing to give up all freedoms in the fight for security. There are better ways for our government to fight this issue. And they don't even have to take away the freedom that you are so willing to give up.
 

flynhigh31

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chperplt said:
By the way... Before you start throwing the Declaration of Independence around, make sure you know how to spell it properly.

Work hard....people on welfare depend on you.

You really should check yourself before you critisize someone else.

By the way... To HELL with everyone on welfare. It is not my responsibility nor is it their right.
 

chperplt

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You really should check yourself before you critisize someone else.
Point out my error... and critisize is spelled criticize.


By the way... To HELL with everyone on welfare. It is not my responsibility nor is it their right.
Yea... That was kind of my point. You're not a Mensa member, are you?


http://www.mensa.org/
 
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A Squared

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I've gotta side with flynhigh, skypine and Dogg on this one.

It's astonishing what a bunch of sheep we've become, how willing we've become to invite the government one level deeper into our lives...and deeper.....and deeper....when is it going to end?

We all sit here and complain about mindless, ineffective and intrusive "security", then when someone tries to actually do something about it, he's a "moron" or a "numbnuts". He should just shut up like the rest of us and accept an increasingly intrusive government.

Tell me, who is it that determines that things are "priveliges" not "rights" ? Hmmmm....could it be the government? and could it be because it is convenient for the government for driving, and flying and such to be "priveleges" and subject to immediate and arbitrary suspension? It certainly doesn't serve the people to have things be "priveleges", and not rights.

So, let's think about the current situation:

You need government issued ID to get on an airplane. You need Government issued ID to get on a bus or train. You need Government issued ID to drive on the public highways. The police have the "right" to demand government issued ID from all occupants of a car, not just the driver, and you are subject to arrest if you don't comply. You may be requred to show govvernment issued ID when you are merely walking in public. Alright put those thoughts on hold, and think back in time a little. Remember how shocked you were to find out that a Soviet citizen needed an internal passport to travel within his own country? Remember how amazed you were at the lack of freedom?

Now, how far from internal passports are we, in real terms, if we need government issued Identification to be allowed the privelege of using ANY form of travel in the US, including WALKING. Is that really what our founding fathers envisioned? Government ID required for walking? What's the next step? a visa to visit your parents in the next state? Think it can't happen? really? why not? All the government has to do is declare it a privelege, not a right. After all, visiting family isn't one of the rights listed in the constitution.

We as citizens of the United States have the *right* to travel freely within the US, right? But, if each and every individual means of travel is a privilege, then the *right* to travel isn't much of a right after all.

think about it guys, maybe when someone pushes back against the ever expanding, ever encroaching government, we ought to cut him a little slack, instead of expecting him to bow his head, and follow the Judas goat, just like the rest of the sheep.

regards
 
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chperplt

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A Squared

You make some very good points. However, I would disagree that requiring a photo ID to board an airplane is the same as being required to hold an internal passport.

All an airline is doing by asking for you to produce an ID is to verify that the name on the picture ID is the same as the name on the ticket. Your ID can be bogus, as long as the name matches.

Airlines have always required ID. Either you showed it at the ticket counter, or you showed it at the gate. Now you show it a few more times. It's just another way for an airline to make sure that the person they sold the ticket to is the person using it. Tickets have never been transferable, and now there isn't any way around it.
 
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