Latest PNCL email

[Kaman]

The words "legacy" and "Pinnacle" together just made me throw up in my mouth a little bit...

 

[CRJ puppy]

So how is it that Compass will be cheaper going forward? Almost all of their pilots will flow to Delta in fairly short order wich causes many training events and lack of pilots. The 175 is not as effecient as the 900 either so that operation has higher fuel costs which impacts Delta. They could give them 900s but the training costs and lack of pilots would be a probelm.

The cost savings, which is HUGE is that no FO is higher than 3rd yr pay, Capts are no higher than 5 yr pay, virtually no one has more than 2 wks vacation and the median age of the pilot group is correspondingly low, so sick time use is low.
Additionally pilots seem to forget that they are not the ONLY cost. You have FAs that have relatively low industry pay rates (and again no one there at hight than about 6 yr pay scale) and the same for their mechanics.
It really is quite that simple.

 

[1.3XVso]

The words "legacy" and "Pinnacle" together just made me throw up in my mouth a little bit...

Lol I'm quoting a lifer who posted that n the air link board.

 

[Flyer1015]

Somebody explain this.....................



Of all the cost cutting going on at Pinnacle, tons of low-mid-high level mangement already let go............



..............how does DW still have a job?!

 

[altimaklr]

The cost savings, which is HUGE is that no FO is higher than 3rd yr pay, Capts are no higher than 5 yr pay, virtually no one has more than 2 wks vacation and the median age of the pilot group is correspondingly low, so sick time use is low.
Additionally pilots seem to forget that they are not the ONLY cost. You have FAs that have relatively low industry pay rates (and again no one there at hight than about 6 yr pay scale) and the same for their mechanics.
It really is quite that simple.

100% correct, and same with GoJet. This is the reason 9E will never have lower costs than competitors, especially on the 900 where FO's are almost all over 6 years seniority and many of the CA's never plan to leave.

 

[xjhawk]

There are a number of things here I wanted to quote so I will just rant on...

What does the number 450 mean to a Pinnacle pilot? It is the seniority number of the most junior FO at Pinnacle after we lose all but 41 former Mesaba CRJ 900's. If you think that fact is lost by all former XJ pilots you are mistaken. Can we do anything about it? No, we of XJ that are not in group 1 or 2 of the Block decision will have our fate with the rest of the group who are not in the top. Thanks ALPA. The one decision that those idiot former executives at Pinnacle wanted and did not get would have been the only good one (to keep us separate). But here we are. But the good thing with our new management is that the training will be better (don't even try to argue this one), oh and another thing is there is a willingness of the new management to do whatever Delta wants so just maybe there will be a flicker of a light at the end of this tunnel.

What will that flicker be? Well with the pay scale and how many long in the tooth pilots Pinnacle has now it will be hard to compete. This is straight from Tom W a couple days ago. I asked if the company wanted to make our captain pay scale capped at 15 years and he said there is no way the union would allow that. He said, "how can they expect a pilot who has made a career at the airline be cut back to the wages he made when he was 30?" So I guess Tom thinks any cuts made to our contract will be on the backs of the junior people once again. He will take the one greatest cut off the table that could make us competitive against other regionals that are more junior in their pay scales. Hey ALPA, when the XJ guys that were screwed (01-04 hires)(not to mention some other 9E groups), it was said that some would have to get screwed for the greater good. Mark N said it a little more eloquently but you get the point. Why not cut the top of the pay scale off now in order to preserve our competitiveness for the greater good? It will not happen-Typical ALPA/Union crap serving the top pilots.

What will happen during this bankruptcy? The Delta TA will pass and Delta will have to shed a couple hundred 50 seaters by 2015. Delta will use the ATL 900's as bait to shed some non leased or owned 50 seaters, they will do the same with the Delta TA allowed additional 70 76seaters. Because of Comair being owned by Delta, there is a chance they might use some of theres as well. Pinnacle is in a unique situation in that its bankruptcy is controlled by Delta and they can tell 9E management that they should cut costs and shed the 200's as they are unprofitable and if they are cheap enough, they might get more 900s. If I am not mistaken, Delta already forced Pinnacle to resign unprofitable airline service agreements in exchange for DIP financing. SO unless we are cheap-no more airplanes as they will be bait for Delta fulfilling their pilots TA. Pinnacle could be screwed even more if Delta makes Pinnacle buy Comair and merge them with 9E pilots. It will be a screw job again for another batch of junior pinnacle pilots as the only regional out there that is more senior to former mesaba is Comair (maybe Horizon).

450
450
Please-everyone worth going to start hiring

 

[SEVEN]

Look at the date on the linked letter dingbat.

I haven't heard the term "dingbat" since 1985? How old are you?

 

[amcnd]

xjhawk has it pretty spot on.. Delta has 5 airlines flying the 50 seater for them. My guess is that will go down to 3-4 airlines. Do the math, they will spit the 125 pretty even. So 30-60 airplanes each.. Just based on the ASA contract that 80% DCI out of ATL has to be them.. And SkyWest's "min-block hours" clause.. CHQ contract is up in 2016.. Comair??? 9E in CH11... The hammer will drop... Delta will want to keep a lowball in there. They need to keep that "rate rest" game going.. In any case! i see 3 airlines flying whats left.. My guess based on the contracts, is ASA will keep the most. ASA maybe 60. SkyWest 30, 9E 35. Will see how close i am.. ( this is all just my guess ) Now to the "new" 900's... Will they have to trade out ASA/SKW some for there contract so maybe 15-20 to each. The real question is who can get the loans? Will Delta. Or is it up to the "regional"..if Delta does. You can bet your bottom dollar GoJet will get some 900's . Everything points to these 70 new ones being CRJ900's. So Compass/Republic may be out of luck.. Then will see if Delta gives any to 9E/Comair... Could be a good way to get someone to buy Comair... 50 aircraft bonus to buy them...??

 

[Cpt Oveur]

Skywest, Inc has a lot of cash

 

[AntiJedi]

The real question is who can get the loans? Will Delta. Or is it up to the "regional"..if Delta does.

Skywest, Inc has a lot of cash

SKYW, Inc., still has that multi-billion dollar loan at the ready, as well. I'm sure DL would love to a) stop paying lease fees on currently owned aircraft, and b) have someone else pay for the new planes.

 

[dingo222]

SKYW, Inc., still has that multi-billion dollar loan at the ready, as well. I'm sure DL would love to a) stop paying lease fees on currently owned aircraft, and b) have someone else pay for the new planes.

becuase we saw how well that worked for pcl. they bought the airplanes, costs went up over time, and delta withheld money until they went into bk. rinse and repeat.

 

[ASApuppy]

SKYW, Inc., still has that multi-billion dollar loan at the ready, as well. I'm sure DL would love to a) stop paying lease fees on currently owned aircraft, and b) have someone else pay for the new planes.

Ummm, It does not matter who own's the lease. The mainline partner whose name appears on the side of the airplane and who sells the seats onboard the aircraft pays for the lease. Either direct to the lease holder or as a pass through. Regionals are not in a business of "gifting" free airplanes. Where differences are made is in volume discounts and or the need to offload a long term debt. Skywest will not lease an aircraft without a long-term contract.

 

[AntiJedi]

The mainline partner whose name appears on the side of the airplane and who sells the seats onboard the aircraft pays for the lease. Either direct to the lease holder or as a pass through. Regionals are not in a business of "gifting" free airplanes. Where differences are made is in volume discounts and or the need to offload a long term debt. Skywest will not lease an aircraft without a long-term contract.

I'm aware that SKYW won't make a move without a contract; it's too conservative a company to try and do something as stupid like that. However, that doesn't mean that they don't have to financial ability to find things in their favor and then execute quicky.

 

[WMUSIGPI]

I'm aware that SKYW won't make a move without a contract; it's too conservative a company to try and do something as stupid like that. However, that doesn't mean that they don't have to financial ability to find things in their favor and then execute quicky.

Only Phil Trenary would be stupid enough to go into business with 2 different partners flying 2 different fleet types taking a loss just to "get a foot in the door in hopes of a better deal down the road"

 

[79%N1]

xjhawk has it pretty spot on.. Delta has 5 airlines flying the 50 seater for them. My guess is that will go down to 3-4 airlines. Do the math, they will spit the 125 pretty even. So 30-60 airplanes each.. Just based on the ASA contract that 80% DCI out of ATL has to be them.. And SkyWest's "min-block hours" clause.. CHQ contract is up in 2016.. Comair??? 9E in CH11... The hammer will drop... Delta will want to keep a lowball in there. They need to keep that "rate rest" game going.. In any case! i see 3 airlines flying whats left.. My guess based on the contracts, is ASA will keep the most. ASA maybe 60. SkyWest 30, 9E 35. Will see how close i am.. ( this is all just my guess ) Now to the "new" 900's... Will they have to trade out ASA/SKW some for there contract so maybe 15-20 to each. The real question is who can get the loans? Will Delta. Or is it up to the "regional"..if Delta does. You can bet your bottom dollar GoJet will get some 900's . Everything points to these 70 new ones being CRJ900's. So Compass/Republic may be out of luck.. Then will see if Delta gives any to 9E/Comair... Could be a good way to get someone to buy Comair... 50 aircraft bonus to buy them...??

\

GoJets will get ZERO new a/c! They have no 200's to trade out - which is part of the contract to eliminate 200's - and Delta is already unhappy with them! They won't be adding any 900's for Delta. Pinnacle is also in trouble, as they are bankrupt. Skywest has money and strong contracts.

 

[Flyer1015]

\

GoJets will get ZERO new a/c! They have no 200's to trade out - which is part of the contract to eliminate 200's - and Delta is already unhappy with them! They won't be adding any 900's for Delta. Pinnacle is also in trouble, as they are bankrupt. Skywest has money and strong contracts.

Sure they can. Delta only wants to eliminate -200s. Pinnacle can easily lose its -200s in exchange of -900s, and Delta can give those to GoJets.

 

[79%N1]

True.....BUT........Delta is already leary of GoJets. They were awarded the flying they got as part of the deal of Trans States purchase of Compass.

 

[titans10]

Who told you delta was leary of GoJets?

 

[sinkrate]

For PNCL to exit BK they will need more cash - and only DAL is willing to supply it - if PNCL meets whatever cost target they have. IF PNCL does exit BK they will have to have a revenue stream large enough to service the debt DAL is going to saddle them with. My guess is some where around 100 AC - that is typicaly what wall street will want for an IPO. The BK judge and the creditor committee will have to accept the plan. It is possible, but not very likely, that PCL could emerge from BK with just the former Mesaba operation. That size operation would struggle to service the new debt incurred in BK. Liquidation would be more likely.

This is very different from CMR or the first Mesaba BK. There are more players in a much larger game. Delta does not have any interest in owning any regioanl. The business model for the DCI operation is to have several regionals competing against each other on price. From DALs perspective there is no profit in owning a regional - it would reduce the competition. They will move the contracts around from carrier to carrier so they are never paying more than year 5 or 6 wage rates. When a carrier gets top heavy with senior pilots they will move the planes to another carrier. Then pilots will go with the planes and start over at year one wage rates. Unless the pilots of the top heavy carrier ratify an agreement that effectively reduces their longevity to equal GoJets - or whoever is the latest new carrier. To a Delta station we are all the same.

It doesn't look good for PCL, CMR or ASA for that matter.

 

[i fly boxes]

I bet this is what happens next: Sometime within the next 1 to 3 months Delta will announce the actual draw down plan of the 200's and an order for 70 CRJ 900's but they will not place them at a regional carrier yet. Then pncl management and all the other managements will threaten all of us and tell us that if we dont bring down our costs, blah blah blah, we will not get the flying. Delta obviously knows where this flying will go but it wont be revealed until after pinnacle comes out of chapter 11 or goes under which should be by the end of the year.

 

[Flyer1015]

I bet this is what happens next: Sometime within the next 1 to 3 months Delta will announce the actual draw down plan of the 200's and an order for 70 CRJ 900's but they will not place them at a regional carrier yet. Then pncl management and all the other managements will threaten all of us and tell us that if we dont bring down our costs, blah blah blah, we will not get the flying.

This is already happening at 9E.

 

[Oakum_Boy]

Who told you delta was leary of GoJets?

Everyone is suffering for that place. Pretty sure they're tolerated by DL to lower the bar, and lower the bar only.

 

[Flyer1015]

Everyone is suffering for that place. Pretty sure they're tolerated by DL to lower the bar, and lower the bar only.

The only good bar was the Comair contract of 2001. After that, every single regional airline stabbed them in the back and settled for far cheaper contracts.
Besides, one outsourced feeder complaining about another outsourced feeder? They're both outsourced contract feeders.

 

[79%N1]

The only good bar was the Comair contract of 2001. After that, every single regional airline stabbed them in the back and settled for far cheaper contracts.
Besides, one outsourced feeder complaining about another outsourced feeder? They're both outsourced contract feeders.

So, are you like the 'new' general lee that just trolls the regional board even though you no longer work at one to grace us with your superior knowledge and take shots at the lowly regional pilots to make yourself somehow feel good because you find yourself better than them? Just checking......

 

[Flyer1015]

So, are you like the 'new' general lee that just trolls the regional board even though you no longer work at one to grace us with your superior knowledge and take shots at the lowly regional pilots to make yourself somehow feel good because you find yourself better than them? Just checking......

No. Because when I worked at a regional, I never thought one regional was "above" another regional.

 

[79%N1]

But you troll the board, and expound your vast knowledge, and yet you no longer work in this segment of the industry. No hobbies?

 

[Flyer1015]

???

I haven't changed how I use this forum just because I moved from one segment to another. At a regional, I would visit LCC/Majors/Regionals. Now, I still visit all three LCC/Majors/Regionals.

 

[e=mc2]

so is 9E the smallest midgit in the room?

 

[Indy319FA]

The only good bar was the Comair contract of 2001. After that, every single regional airline stabbed them in the back and settled for far cheaper contracts.
Besides, one outsourced feeder complaining about another outsourced feeder? They're both outsourced contract feeders.

+1..One of the best posts I've read in a while......

 

[Indy319FA]

Everyone is suffering for that place. Pretty sure they're tolerated by DL to lower the bar, and lower the bar only.

Hmmm....ten years ago I used to hear the Air Whiskey, Mesaba, Comair, and ACA guys say the same thing about Expressjet, Skywest, Mesa, Chautauqua, and Pinnacle......