Latest on JBPA and bandofblue

[Hair-on-Fire]

I was furloughed from UAL and there was no one more criticized for their interviewing process than UAL. But the job was good, so we all put up with it.

 

[Hair-on-Fire]

Yeah let's keep status quo and count on management goodwill to fix things. They have had their chance, it's time to take matters into our own hands.

You're angry and are going to make an emotional decision. Good plan.

 

[Blue Dude]

You're right that the devil is in the details. My point was to counter the assertion that we're behind everyone in every area. Simply not true.

OK, then. Please provide details on areas that we're not lagging industry average.

 

[Blue Dude]

You're angry and are going to make an emotional decision. Good plan.

I don't see the emotion in his post, other than sarcasm. This is a business decision.

 

[Hair-on-Fire]

OK, then. Please provide details on areas that we're not lagging industry average.

I gave a few examples. Also, I contend our trip modification/cancellation protection is the best out there. Our flexibility in trading/swapping/dropping trips is excellent.

Lots of areas for improvement, I agree. In some areas we suck. However this idea that voting for JBPA = improvements in all areas is a load of bull.

 

[Blue Dude]

I gave a few examples. Also, I contend our trip modification/cancellation protection is the best out there. Our flexibility in trading/swapping/dropping trips is excellent.

Lots of areas for improvement, I agree. In some areas we suck. However this idea that voting for JBPA = improvements in all areas is a load of bull.

Noone is saying that JBPA is the promised land. But it is the only legal mechanism for improvements in some important areas: retirement, disability medical, survivor benefits, a few others. Most of the rest of the desired improvements wouldn't cost much of anything, but there's no willingness to make changes on the part of the company, mostly because we're not experiencing high turnover at the moment. Us: we'd like to make some changes here. They mostly won't cost you a dime. Them: no, we're busy, maybe next time, if there is a next time. What to do then? Quit? Oh, I know, I signed a contract. What I didn't know was that the conatract I signed was going to be practically the same with 150 airplanes/2000 pilots as with 15 airplanes/200 pilots. We still are working under "startup" rules. News flash: we're no longer a startup. This place was sold to new pilots as a career airline, but we're not working under career airline conditions. At what point will that occur? They won't say.

I agree that Flica is a great tool. But it's one that saves the company a great deal of money as well. Look at how lean they can staff scheduling (and how perfunctorily they can train them) because for most routine requests we can perform our own scheduling. This is a case of working smarter, not harder (see reservations for another example). But it's not a union/no-union factor because it's a benefit for both parties that would be foolish to be "put on the table" by either party. If they did that, there are all kinds of things we can ask for in return for running so leanly and productively. So I don't see Flica going away as any sort of risk.

BTW, our trip mod/cancellation process and Flica are not in our contracts. The next Bluebooks update can alter or do away with them. I don't think that's at all likely in this case, but they are not in any way protected from unilateral removal as has happened often in the past. I don't view this as an argument in your favor.

 

[ualdriver]

I was never asked that question at my JetBlue interview. Likewise, I never subjected myself to your super anal scantron form either. I heard too many horror stories about the latter. Evidently you like United and I'll tell you right up front I like JetBlue. Additionally, I voted for union representation because ultimately I believe it will help our overall compensation package to improve. Will United be giving furloughed pilots perferential interviews for their new Aer lingus codeshare.

You have a beef with the SCANTRON? What was the big deal with that? If you're going to make fun of the UAL interview/selection process, you're going to have to do better than that. Didn't you know we've only hired females and minorities over the past decade or so? You should have gone more in that direction. It's more inflammatory and you'd find more support for your observations on this forum.

If you'd like to debate the impications of the Aer lingus codeshare and the provisions of my contract that cover such a proposition, I'd be happy to do so. However, I assume you have NO IDEA about the our contractual provisions concerning that arrangement, the only "facts" you have concerning the codeshare is what you've read on flightinfo, and we'd both be wasting our time. Especially since the company hasn't even released the real details of what they intend to do.

It's not that I "like" United. In fact, if this industry had free movement of labor, I don't think a marketable pilot would stay here.

 

[Hair-on-Fire]

Noone is saying that JBPA is the promised land. But it is the only legal mechanism for improvements in some important areas: retirement, disability medical, survivor benefits, a few others. Most of the rest of the desired improvements wouldn't cost much of anything, but there's no willingness to make changes on the part of the company, mostly because we're not experiencing high turnover at the moment. Us: we'd like to make some changes here. They mostly won't cost you a dime. Them: no, we're busy, maybe next time, if there is a next time. What to do then? Quit? Oh, I know, I signed a contract. What I didn't know was that the conatract I signed was going to be practically the same with 150 airplanes/2000 pilots as with 15 airplanes/200 pilots. We still are working under "startup" rules. News flash: we're no longer a startup. This place was sold to new pilots as a career airline, but we're not working under career airline conditions. At what point will that occur? They won't say.

I agree that Flica is a great tool. But it's one that saves the company a great deal of money as well. Look at how lean they can staff scheduling (and how perfunctorily they can train them) because for most routine requests we can perform our own scheduling. This is a case of working smarter, not harder (see reservations for another example). But it's not a union/no-union factor because it's a benefit for both parties that would be foolish to be "put on the table" by either party. If they did that, there are all kinds of things we can ask for in return for running so leanly and productively. So I don't see Flica going away as any sort of risk.

BTW, our trip mod/cancellation process and Flica are not in our contracts. The next Bluebooks update can alter or do away with them. I don't think that's at all likely in this case, but they are not in any way protected from unilateral removal as has happened often in the past. I don't view this as an argument in your favor.

I think you're totally right that Flica and our trip protections need to be in writing. JBPA doesn't = that though. We are just as likely to get them in our PEAs as we are in a CBA. The only true advantage I think JBPA offers is the legal advantages of ERISA testing. You do have to weigh those against the likelyhood of JBPA actually achieving any of those benefits and the cost of dues. Otherwise, I don't think JBPA offers us much at all. Those that think they're going to quickly secure significant improvements are going to be sorely disapointed.

I'm not an ALPA supporter, but at least with ALPA you could point to their aeromedical and legal department to show me something important I'd be getting for my money. I can undertand that. However, JPBA is just a couple guys in their garage. Not much motivation to vote yes.

 

[BLUE BAYOU]

OK, then. Please provide details on areas that we're not lagging industry average.

That's pretty easy: FURLOUGHS...

 

[BLUE BAYOU]

Listen Colonel Beard,

1. If they outsource 500 jobs , then the "culture" they are so proud of is a sham, and we DEFINITELY needed a union.

2. What's up with the 1% deal? You're so well paid at jb, right? Compared to all the legacies, I mean. What's the big deal anyway? Besides, your starting to whine.

3. Closed shop.

Um, before you come to premature ejaculatory conjecture-- COL Beard flew B-52s; the planes I flew had half the number of engines of his bomber.... So I'm so sorry, I'm not the famous COL...

 

[Blue Dude]

That's pretty easy: FURLOUGHS...

Show me our bullet-proof no furlough language. All we've got is a "policy". Didn't you hear the conference call this morning? We're not furloughing because we can grow quickly if we need to with more staffing than strictly needed. If there was a business case for furloughing, we would have, period.

 

[a320drivr]

were hiring in the spring. furloughs sure are gonna happen. nice scare tactic.

 

[CTflyer]

The problem is the timing. If the economy and financial institutions and the job market wasn't so dismal-- JBPA would've had a chance. Pilots aren't stupid, we'd all love great paychecks, benefits and work rules-- but it don't mean frac unless you have a job!!! When Feb 3 rolls around and JBPA doesn't pass, the company will still have a looming prospect of a union if glaring problems here aren't addressed soon. I don't think an in-house union that has to be started from scratch with little available funds was the correct avenue for representation. An ALPA, god forbid me for saying this, would've been a quicker and more viable option.

I'm not for a bunch of newbies who'll slip up our first contract that'll last 3-5 years; then have to wait that amount of time plus 3 years (the average so far for contract negotiations AAI, AMR, CAL, SWA) to get things fixed!!!

And again, no one at JBPA has addressed the fact that our first contract will be from scratch and that everything we have now will be dissolved and negotiated for again!!! SO the fact remains, we could actually come up with less than what we have now if the economic conditions remain in place. So how many people would like to see a reduction in pay for the first time to get our first CBA in place?

Hey Blue,

We already have less than we have now.....PTS at premium gone....That hits me for a couple thousand a year.......

Are you convinced the company won't cut more things from our PEA?....They seem to change it at will. Sure they give you the option to sign or not too sign, but with a CBA...anything they want to change they come to us and ask.....negotiate if you will......none of this unilateral work rule changes....

 

[BLUE BAYOU]

Hey Blue,

We already have less than we have now.....PTS at premium gone....That hits me for a couple thousand a year.......

Are you convinced the company won't cut more things from our PEA?....They seem to change it at will. Sure they give you the option to sign or not too sign, but with a CBA...anything they want to change they come to us and ask.....negotiate if you will......none of this unilateral work rule changes....

Most pilots manipulated PTS; at any given month 25% of the pilots PTSd at least once a month some even more. You abuse it you lose it. There was also a time when you could bid a single reserve day followed by one off so that you could loophole getting multi day trips on reserve-- abused it, gone... So there you have it, in good faith, the company provided some of these goodies, and like all pilots, a few ruined it for all.

Additionally, nothing will ever change the fact that management will always get what they want. You can sit and negotiate years for a great contract and overnight, the company can take much of it away for "survival" and then instead of snapbacks, they'll wait until your contract expires to renegotiate the terms you already had in place-- I'm sorry, it is a sad fact and there are too many airline pilots who have lived it and are living it now...

 

[Fubijaakr]

FADEC,

Looking at APC's latest chart, 4 years seniority in the left seat of a 100 seat jet and you're earning $75 an hour?

You deserve better than that. Hopefully, JBPA will allow you guys to negotiate something better than RJ wages to fly what is essentially a narrowbody airliner.

 

[Splert]

Most pilots manipulated PTS; at any given month 25% of the pilots PTS at least once a month some even more. You abuse it you lose it.

I saw the presentation to the PVC. The number was no where near 25%.

But the removal of PTS at PP did cost the pilot group $2,000,000.

This just shows how dorked up PP is. It should trigger at 84 hours and the base rate should be raised to compensate. Then the entire issue would not be an issue. PTS is paid at base.

Instead the company just took $2,000,000 from the pilot group under false pretenses and you are blaming the pilots.

What a strange group of pilots I work with.

 

[Splert]

...fact and there are too many airline pilots who have lived it and are living it now...

Yet these pilots all have overall a higher total compensation package than the pilots that have the best relationship in the industry with its management. Do you want to know how good the relationships is? Just ask management and they will tell you.

 

[viper01]

FADEC,

Looking at APC's latest chart, 4 years seniority in the left seat of a 100 seat jet and you're earning $75 an hour?

You deserve better than that. Hopefully, JBPA will allow you guys to negotiate something better than RJ wages to fly what is essentially a narrowbody airliner.

Did you mean to say $94? 4 year A-320 right seat is $75.

 

[CTflyer]

Hey Blue,

We already have less than we have now.....PTS at premium gone....That hits me for a couple thousand a year.......

Are you convinced the company won't cut more things from our PEA?....They seem to change it at will. Sure they give you the option to sign or not too sign, but with a CBA...anything they want to change they come to us and ask.....negotiate if you will......none of this unilateral work rule changes....

So basically just roll over and let the company steam roll ya....Sounds like thats your view. Whats next? A cut in pay? Will you be OK with that? I guess your answer will be..."Well the company just thought they paid us too much so they took some away from us. All I can say is that I hope you are not a PVC member. Sounds like your a yes man...

As far as PTS goes, sure, there is some abuse occuring in less that 10% of the pilot group. So what does the company do, they just get rid of it. You do not think a better idea would of been to come to the pilot group....let us know what they are thinking and ask us if we have any solutions to the abuse of PTS. I for one have 2 solutions....While not perfect would of possibly helped the PTS situation. Or even go to the PVC and ask them to help them solve the issue. Wouldn't you have wanted that? Or are you one of those pilots that never calls in sick so the benefit does not apply to me so screw those that are actually sick and now have to take a pay cut when they are sick. Not too sure if you were here or not but PTS at premium was put in as a safety issue so that pilots who are sick can call in sick and keep their pay......

Sure abuses will happen, but the company could of presented their view on all this a little better.....

 

[Splert]

So basically just roll over and let the company steam roll ya....Sounds like thats your view. Whats next? A cut in pay? Will you be OK with that? I guess your answer will be..."Well the company just thought they paid us too much so they took some away from us. All I can say is that I hope you are not a PVC member. Sounds like your a yes man...

As far as PTS goes, sure, there is some abuse occuring in less that 10% of the pilot group. So what does the company do, they just get rid of it. You do not think a better idea would of been to come to the pilot group....let us know what they are thinking and ask us if we have any solutions to the abuse of PTS. I for one have 2 solutions....While not perfect would of possibly helped the PTS situation. Or even go to the PVC and ask them to help them solve the issue. Wouldn't you have wanted that? Or are you one of those pilots that never calls in sick so the benefit does not apply to me so screw those that are actually sick and now have to take a pay cut when they are sick. Not too sure if you were here or not but PTS at premium was put in as a safety issue so that pilots who are sick can call in sick and keep their pay......

Sure abuses will happen, but the company could of presented their view on all this a little better.....

The presentation to the PVC had zero to do with 'abuse' it had everything to do finding a zero cost solutions for targeted pay raises.

Take $2,000,000 from here and and put $2,000,000 there and the tools start talking about how the company gave some pilots a raise.

It is unbelievable that some believe managements spin.