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Key Lime Air--New updates?
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Don't believe everything you read, the negative people are always the most vocal. I've been with Key Lime for several years, I consider it one of the better 135 airlines. They provide furnished apartments with cable TV and crew cars at all the out-stations, as compared to making the pilots sit around the FBO all day. Pay is better than most. Upgrade to left seat of a twin turbine is faster than anywhere I know of, with the possible exception of Great Lakes. We are primarily a UPS contractor, which means that you won't get a huge amount of flight time, average maybe 750 hours/year. UPS also drives our schedule; if you're not familiar with the parcel carrier's schedule, better find out. It can work very well, depending on what you want and whether you're willing to relocate to a small town. Mx is good, training is improving. Metro time looks great in a logbook. We've had people go from here to the fractionals, Kalitta Air (747) etc. Depends on what you want to do. I'm not familiar with any Navajo VFR program; do you mean Navajo SIC program?
Jedi_Cheese
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acpilot
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Caboclo is right. Many people on FI post negative info about Key Lime Air (and other companies) without any actual firsthand knoweledge of the operation. Here's my input...
I was once a good Key Lime employee, now I'm just happy to have moved on without damaging my career...besides having to put "Key Lime" on a resume! Like most 135 operators, they will say and do just about anything to get you to fly. That's just the nature of the business though. It's a good place to be if you want to build turbine time hand flying in rough conditions with a challenging aircraft (it beats an RJ any day!). You WILL learn a lot very quickly about weather, handling management, and flying in general. Most pilots who know what a Metro is generally respect people who can fly it single pilot in hard IFR conditions.
There are a few problems with the company though. The following is a collection of Key Lime-isms from various pilots. If you decide to accept employment from KLA, be advised:
-Don't ever, EVER refuse an airplane (regardless of it's condition)...they don't like that at all. If you do refuse an airplane, you will have made "the list." You won't be off of said list until somebody else screws up equal to or worse than you did. This pretty much discribes the company culture and the mindset of management. (The beatings will continue until morale improves)
-They may tell you that they have a waiver for duty times...they don't. (Ask to see it)
-Stay on the mechanics, a few (when I was there) will "ops check good" your write-up's right there in front of you if the plane is still physically capabale of flight. Keep the write-up's coming and they will eventually fix whatever is broken. Two weeks of "ops check good" won't fly real well with inspectors. Photocopy and keep EVERY flight log. Be sure that write-ups are clearly written and visible on the copies.
-Get used to using an ice scraper on wings and tails...they de-ice only when ABSOLUTELY necessary. To be fair, the de-ice stuff is expensive and scraping ice ins't really a safety issue if you take it seriously.
-Record duty times. They will tell you it's not your responsibility...it is.
-They will try to sue you if you leave. There is a way out of the contract...that's all I'll say about it.
-"Over Gross" and "Zero Fuel Weight" mean absolutely nothing to them. If they tell you to "make it work," that means keep loading until you can't load anymore. On several occasions, I took it to mean "be legal." Needless to say, they were very unhappy with me.
-If you talk about a union, you will be fired.
-The FAA has been known to swarm the ramp when planes return to DEN for the night. Keep an eye out for Dodge Durangos. There has, on more than one occasion, been a Fed snooping around on a Saturday looking at the Metros.
-"I'm off duty" means very little to them. Expect phone calls regardless of your duty time status. I didn't think it was a big deal, but it's a dealbreaker for some pilots.
Otherwise, good luck and watch your back. Nobody else will care about you there (seriously). Most (not all) of the "lifers"/old timers think KLA is a good place to be...let them think it. Try to make QUALITY friends (most of the loud, outgoing pilots are not these "quality" friends), keep your head down, and don't screw up. Maybe you won't get a violation! By the way, the "dispatchers" seem cool and really are nice people outside of work, but they will not hesitate for a second to report you to management for even the most insignificant mistake.
KLA has, on more than one occasion, thrown a pilot/mechanic under the bus in order to gain favor with the FAA; they do it because it works. It's not a rumor, I've witnessed it. They will say it's a "self disclosure" and that it only protects the company. That's a half truth. They can also protect the pilot/mechanic but they choose not to. Talk to anyone who has been in the industry and dealt with "self disclosures."
To summerize:
KLA isn't entirely evil, it's just a low end 135 operation. You PROBABLY won't get a violation flying for the Lime, but your odds of getting caught "making it work" certainly increase. The pay is acceptable and they do provide an apartment and a car. Normally the cars run well, but they will have you take it in for repairs when you are supposed to be "off duty." The schedule blows but it is fixed and you almost always know what you're doing well in advance. Most importantly, their checks don't bounce and they pay on-time every time.
In these times, it may be the best thing you can find. If that is the case, I'm sorry and hope that you can find something better very, very soon.
Good luck!
ACP
I was once a good Key Lime employee, now I'm just happy to have moved on without damaging my career...besides having to put "Key Lime" on a resume! Like most 135 operators, they will say and do just about anything to get you to fly. That's just the nature of the business though. It's a good place to be if you want to build turbine time hand flying in rough conditions with a challenging aircraft (it beats an RJ any day!). You WILL learn a lot very quickly about weather, handling management, and flying in general. Most pilots who know what a Metro is generally respect people who can fly it single pilot in hard IFR conditions.
There are a few problems with the company though. The following is a collection of Key Lime-isms from various pilots. If you decide to accept employment from KLA, be advised:
-Don't ever, EVER refuse an airplane (regardless of it's condition)...they don't like that at all. If you do refuse an airplane, you will have made "the list." You won't be off of said list until somebody else screws up equal to or worse than you did. This pretty much discribes the company culture and the mindset of management. (The beatings will continue until morale improves)
-They may tell you that they have a waiver for duty times...they don't. (Ask to see it)
-Stay on the mechanics, a few (when I was there) will "ops check good" your write-up's right there in front of you if the plane is still physically capabale of flight. Keep the write-up's coming and they will eventually fix whatever is broken. Two weeks of "ops check good" won't fly real well with inspectors. Photocopy and keep EVERY flight log. Be sure that write-ups are clearly written and visible on the copies.
-Get used to using an ice scraper on wings and tails...they de-ice only when ABSOLUTELY necessary. To be fair, the de-ice stuff is expensive and scraping ice ins't really a safety issue if you take it seriously.
-Record duty times. They will tell you it's not your responsibility...it is.
-They will try to sue you if you leave. There is a way out of the contract...that's all I'll say about it.
-"Over Gross" and "Zero Fuel Weight" mean absolutely nothing to them. If they tell you to "make it work," that means keep loading until you can't load anymore. On several occasions, I took it to mean "be legal." Needless to say, they were very unhappy with me.
-If you talk about a union, you will be fired.
-The FAA has been known to swarm the ramp when planes return to DEN for the night. Keep an eye out for Dodge Durangos. There has, on more than one occasion, been a Fed snooping around on a Saturday looking at the Metros.
-"I'm off duty" means very little to them. Expect phone calls regardless of your duty time status. I didn't think it was a big deal, but it's a dealbreaker for some pilots.
Otherwise, good luck and watch your back. Nobody else will care about you there (seriously). Most (not all) of the "lifers"/old timers think KLA is a good place to be...let them think it. Try to make QUALITY friends (most of the loud, outgoing pilots are not these "quality" friends), keep your head down, and don't screw up. Maybe you won't get a violation! By the way, the "dispatchers" seem cool and really are nice people outside of work, but they will not hesitate for a second to report you to management for even the most insignificant mistake.
KLA has, on more than one occasion, thrown a pilot/mechanic under the bus in order to gain favor with the FAA; they do it because it works. It's not a rumor, I've witnessed it. They will say it's a "self disclosure" and that it only protects the company. That's a half truth. They can also protect the pilot/mechanic but they choose not to. Talk to anyone who has been in the industry and dealt with "self disclosures."
To summerize:
KLA isn't entirely evil, it's just a low end 135 operation. You PROBABLY won't get a violation flying for the Lime, but your odds of getting caught "making it work" certainly increase. The pay is acceptable and they do provide an apartment and a car. Normally the cars run well, but they will have you take it in for repairs when you are supposed to be "off duty." The schedule blows but it is fixed and you almost always know what you're doing well in advance. Most importantly, their checks don't bounce and they pay on-time every time.
In these times, it may be the best thing you can find. If that is the case, I'm sorry and hope that you can find something better very, very soon.
Good luck!
ACP
Last edited:
Vegaspilot99
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I've considered putting something in at KLA since I have Metro time, enjoyed the aircraft and wouldn't mind Denver. Problem is I don't want anything to do with being outstation based. Is it true thats all they offer? And second I will not hesitate to refuse an aircraft I deem unairworthy and my days of "making it work" are over. I've grown too attached to my certs to left the FAA take em back. If any of what I've heard that relates to this isn't true I'd be happy to hear about it. I would really like to find a full time flying job again. thx
LizardEyes
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Ditto!!
Ditto what acpilot said. I worked up the ramp in Denver for Superior Aviation, Inc. If you are considering KLA, RUN AWAY AS FAST AS YOU CAN!! Shoddy operation doesn't even come close to describing this outfit. There must be some reason they get awarded the lowest bid for UPS in Denver and it ain't efficiency my friend. There are certainly other freight expediters that you can go to without compromising your safety and your ticket. Good Luck out there. I just got furloughed, so I join the legion chasing too few jobs.
Ditto what acpilot said. I worked up the ramp in Denver for Superior Aviation, Inc. If you are considering KLA, RUN AWAY AS FAST AS YOU CAN!! Shoddy operation doesn't even come close to describing this outfit. There must be some reason they get awarded the lowest bid for UPS in Denver and it ain't efficiency my friend. There are certainly other freight expediters that you can go to without compromising your safety and your ticket. Good Luck out there. I just got furloughed, so I join the legion chasing too few jobs.
I just did a quick search of the NTSB site and came up with this........
- On June 5, 2000, at 1031 mountain daylight time, a Piper PA-31-350, twin-engine airplane, N67BJ, was destroyed when it impacted terrain and burned following a loss of control while maneuvering near Kiowa, Colorado. The airplane was registered to EDB Air Inc., of Greenwood Village, Colorado, and was operated by Key Lime Air, Inc., of Englewood, Colorado. The airline transport instructor pilot and the commercial pilot receiving instruction received fatal injuries.
- On September 24, 2001, at 0904 mountain daylight time, a PA-31-350, N161RB, was destroyed following impact with terrain while maneuvering near Pagosa Springs, Colorado. The two commercial pilots received fatal injuries. Key Lime Air of Denver, Colorado, was operating the on demand domestic cargo flight under 14 CFR Part 135.
- On February 12, 2003, at 1908 mountain standard time, a Piper PA-31-350, N9247L, operated by Key Lime Aviation, sustained minor damage during a forced landing to a field near Goodland, Kansas, after a partial loss of power to both engines during cruise flight.
- On November 1, 2003, at 0752 mountain standard time, a Fairchild Swearingen SA227BC, N787KL, operated by Key Lime Air, was substantially damaged after striking a snow bank while landing at Rawlins Municipal Airport (RWL), Rawlins, Wyoming.
- On November 18, 2003, at 0721 mountain standard time, a Swearingen SA226TC, N332BA, owned and operated by Key Lime Air Corp., Wilsonville, Oregon, was substantially damaged when it impacted terrain during landing roll at Walker Field (GJT), Grand Junction, Colorado.
- On December 3, 2003, at approximately 0555 mountain standard time, a Swearingen SA227-AC, N340AE, and a Swearingen SA226-TC, N60U, both operated by Key Lime, Inc., were substantially damaged when they collided during night taxi at Denver International Airport, Denver, Colorado.
- On April 5, 2006, at 0623 mountain daylight time, a Swearingen SA226TC twin-engine turboprop airplane, N770S, operated as Key Lime 515, sustained an in-flight failure of an elevator control cable during initial climb from the Denver International Airport, Denver, Colorado.
- On December 8, 2006, approximately 0800 mountain standard time, a Fairchild SA227BC, N779BC, operated by Key Lime Air, Inc., and piloted by a commercial pilot, under the command of an airline transport-certificated pilot, was substantially damaged when it landed hard at Gillette, Wyoming's Campbell County Airport.
- At 0728 MST (1428 UTC) a runway incursion occurred involving Key Lime Air (LYM) flight 4216, an SW4, and Frontier (FFT) flight 297, an A319, at Denver International Airport (DEN), Denver, Colorado.
- On October 9, 2007, at 0813 mountain daylight time, a Piper PA-31-350, N313RA, operated by Key Lime Air, Inc., (KY7A) and piloted by a commercial pilot, was substantially damaged when it landed wheels up at Perry Stokes Airport (TAD), Trinidad, Colorado.
It looks like at least 2 of the incidents / accidents were attributed to maintenance or lack thereof.
- On June 5, 2000, at 1031 mountain daylight time, a Piper PA-31-350, twin-engine airplane, N67BJ, was destroyed when it impacted terrain and burned following a loss of control while maneuvering near Kiowa, Colorado. The airplane was registered to EDB Air Inc., of Greenwood Village, Colorado, and was operated by Key Lime Air, Inc., of Englewood, Colorado. The airline transport instructor pilot and the commercial pilot receiving instruction received fatal injuries.
- On September 24, 2001, at 0904 mountain daylight time, a PA-31-350, N161RB, was destroyed following impact with terrain while maneuvering near Pagosa Springs, Colorado. The two commercial pilots received fatal injuries. Key Lime Air of Denver, Colorado, was operating the on demand domestic cargo flight under 14 CFR Part 135.
- On February 12, 2003, at 1908 mountain standard time, a Piper PA-31-350, N9247L, operated by Key Lime Aviation, sustained minor damage during a forced landing to a field near Goodland, Kansas, after a partial loss of power to both engines during cruise flight.
- On November 1, 2003, at 0752 mountain standard time, a Fairchild Swearingen SA227BC, N787KL, operated by Key Lime Air, was substantially damaged after striking a snow bank while landing at Rawlins Municipal Airport (RWL), Rawlins, Wyoming.
- On November 18, 2003, at 0721 mountain standard time, a Swearingen SA226TC, N332BA, owned and operated by Key Lime Air Corp., Wilsonville, Oregon, was substantially damaged when it impacted terrain during landing roll at Walker Field (GJT), Grand Junction, Colorado.
- On December 3, 2003, at approximately 0555 mountain standard time, a Swearingen SA227-AC, N340AE, and a Swearingen SA226-TC, N60U, both operated by Key Lime, Inc., were substantially damaged when they collided during night taxi at Denver International Airport, Denver, Colorado.
- On April 5, 2006, at 0623 mountain daylight time, a Swearingen SA226TC twin-engine turboprop airplane, N770S, operated as Key Lime 515, sustained an in-flight failure of an elevator control cable during initial climb from the Denver International Airport, Denver, Colorado.
- On December 8, 2006, approximately 0800 mountain standard time, a Fairchild SA227BC, N779BC, operated by Key Lime Air, Inc., and piloted by a commercial pilot, under the command of an airline transport-certificated pilot, was substantially damaged when it landed hard at Gillette, Wyoming's Campbell County Airport.
- At 0728 MST (1428 UTC) a runway incursion occurred involving Key Lime Air (LYM) flight 4216, an SW4, and Frontier (FFT) flight 297, an A319, at Denver International Airport (DEN), Denver, Colorado.
- On October 9, 2007, at 0813 mountain daylight time, a Piper PA-31-350, N313RA, operated by Key Lime Air, Inc., (KY7A) and piloted by a commercial pilot, was substantially damaged when it landed wheels up at Perry Stokes Airport (TAD), Trinidad, Colorado.
It looks like at least 2 of the incidents / accidents were attributed to maintenance or lack thereof.
DO NOT, I say again, DO NOT even think about gracing these clowns with your resume! If you have any self respect and value your hard-earned certs, you'd be a moron to go any where near this dumpster of an airline. Every member of management from the Pres to the secretary are all a bunch of lazy, self-serving, d-bags who run the 'business' using fear and intimidation. Nothing good will ever come from this nightmare. It's downright dangerous. The only pilots who are able to make a home here are breaking FARs on a daily basis. Either that or they have the balls to push back and/or make deals with the scumbags on the ramp. The only reason they pay on time is because they borrow tens of thousands of dollars every month from their equally stupid financial backer. The combined inteligence running this place is equal to that of a bag of hammers. There is no quality of life for pilots and duty times are constantly in question. A couple years ago several guys received LOIs in regard to rest period violations. All training is in-house and is clearly reflected in their accident history. Turnover in the maintenance dept is very high. Any wrenchturner with experience at the company has multiple violations. Those new mechs who come in to get some experience either run away or end up fired for not 'playing ball' the Key Lime way. Bottom line: You'd be better off a WalMart checker, stay away......
acpilot
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The bold parts are true based on what I've seen.
Quoted from TennJed:
DO NOT, I say again, DO NOT even think about gracing these clowns with your resume! If you have any self respect and value your hard-earned certs, you'd be a moron to go any where near this dumpster of an airline. Every member of management from the Pres to the secretary are all a bunch of lazy, self-serving, d-bags who run the 'business' using fear and intimidation. Nothing good will ever come from this nightmare. It's downright dangerous. The only pilots who are able to make a home here are breaking FARs on a daily basis. Either that or they have the balls to push back and/or make deals with the scumbags on the ramp. The only reason they pay on time is because they borrow tens of thousands of dollars every month from their equally stupid financial backer. The combined inteligence running this place is equal to that of a bag of hammers. There is no quality of life for pilots and duty times are constantly in question. A couple years ago several guys received LOIs in regard to rest period violations. All training is in-house and is clearly reflected in their accident history. Turnover in the maintenance dept is very high. Any wrenchturner with experience at the company has multiple violations. Those new mechs who come in to get some experience either run away or end up fired for not 'playing ball' the Key Lime way. Bottom line: You'd be better off a WalMart checker, stay away......
NOTE: All but one of the LOI's were recalled. Their POI was trying to look busy to his superiors...he was promoted.
Quoted from TennJed:
DO NOT, I say again, DO NOT even think about gracing these clowns with your resume! If you have any self respect and value your hard-earned certs, you'd be a moron to go any where near this dumpster of an airline. Every member of management from the Pres to the secretary are all a bunch of lazy, self-serving, d-bags who run the 'business' using fear and intimidation. Nothing good will ever come from this nightmare. It's downright dangerous. The only pilots who are able to make a home here are breaking FARs on a daily basis. Either that or they have the balls to push back and/or make deals with the scumbags on the ramp. The only reason they pay on time is because they borrow tens of thousands of dollars every month from their equally stupid financial backer. The combined inteligence running this place is equal to that of a bag of hammers. There is no quality of life for pilots and duty times are constantly in question. A couple years ago several guys received LOIs in regard to rest period violations. All training is in-house and is clearly reflected in their accident history. Turnover in the maintenance dept is very high. Any wrenchturner with experience at the company has multiple violations. Those new mechs who come in to get some experience either run away or end up fired for not 'playing ball' the Key Lime way. Bottom line: You'd be better off a WalMart checker, stay away......
NOTE: All but one of the LOI's were recalled. Their POI was trying to look busy to his superiors...he was promoted.
Last edited:
208starcheck
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I might be wrong but I believe XC for 135 is anything airport to airport. The 50 nm is not require for 135 xc.
acpilot
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Airport to Airport...correct
pilot error
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in order.
1. which other 135 outfits have you flown at? the only people i have heard say positive things about key lime are people who took their first job there, and are lacking a basis of comparison.
2. they get a crew apartment because it is cheaper than a hotel. being that you are getting your required rest during the day, they have to stick you somewhere.
3. pay is abysmal, and if you aren't making sure the checks aren't short, you ought to.
4. fast upgrades? depends on how many people just finished their contracts and can leave without being sued, or how many people were recently fired.
5. mx is a joke. just because they keep the paint up, doesn't mean anything beneath it is being looked at. of course i'm sure you've never seen, "ops check good, could not duplicate"
6. training is better? how can it be worse than, "here's a book, be ready to answer some questions in a week"?
op- stay away from that cesspool. your certificates and your well being aren't worth it.
is there anybody who works for the Lime right now that can input for QOL and work rules and all that good stuff? Im furloughed from a 121 carrier right now and looking for something to tide me over till call back. After talking to our union rep he said there are a few ways out of the training contract and he pretty much said if you can find a flying job, take it. Before i get flamed for the question, i would just appreciate the honest truth. I phone interviewed last week and just waiting for a call back. thanks guys in advance.
acpilot
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If you take the job, good luck! Really, I'd be interested to see if it's changed...my guess is that it has not.
You would also be getting in to the routes during the spring/summer. If you were in the Metro (depending on your total time) you would have plenty of time to get the single pilot thing down in relatively good weather.
Again, good luck!
You would also be getting in to the routes during the spring/summer. If you were in the Metro (depending on your total time) you would have plenty of time to get the single pilot thing down in relatively good weather.
Again, good luck!
Adisk, I'm currently working at Key Lime, and I stand by my previous post in the face of all the crap in the subsequent posts. In response to all those allegations, I would have to ask why the posters didn't file a report to the FAA if things were really that bad. I've previously worked for 2 135 companies: Airnet and Central Air Southwest. I'd say Key Lime is better than Central Air and not quite as good as Airnet. Pay is better than Great Lakes; we had one of their Brasilia captains come here because we paid better to fly a smaller plane. My current w2 says 49,300. That's second year Metro pay, including longevity bonus which you get a year after completing your contract. I think first year Metro pay is probably around 43K. I have personally refused aircraft for mx reasons on at least 4 occasions that I can think of off the top of my head, even at the last minute after all the freight was loaded. I've left freight behind to avoid flying over gross weight and zero fuel weight, even by as little as 200 lbs, and I've never had any backlash from the company about it. Like most things in life, it comes down to attitude. If you assume the worst about your boss and start screaming and cussing and threatening to call the FAA if he doesn't fix whatever the problem is, then he's probably not going to like you very much. By contrast, if you tell him the problem calmly and politely, and offer a workable solution, then everyone's life will be much happier, yours included. Key Lime is a small enough company that management gets to know everyone personally; they get a pretty good feel about who has a good attitude, and who's always looking to cause trouble. If you just do your job and extend the same respect to others that you expect from them, you'll do fine here.
As far as QOL, I'm sure they told you the schedule when you interviewed. It's not great, but it is pretty fixed, so you know what to expect, at least until the weather goes down. If you don't mind living at the outstation in some tiny town, you'll have a lot more home time. If you prefer to live in Denver, you'll spend half your weekends commuting back and forth. If you have any other specific questions, feel free to pm me.
As far as QOL, I'm sure they told you the schedule when you interviewed. It's not great, but it is pretty fixed, so you know what to expect, at least until the weather goes down. If you don't mind living at the outstation in some tiny town, you'll have a lot more home time. If you prefer to live in Denver, you'll spend half your weekends commuting back and forth. If you have any other specific questions, feel free to pm me.
How do you know that those complaining haven't already filed FAA complaints? Pilots tend not to brag about this particular action.
FAA Investigations in progress are not a matter of public record.
Nor do we know how many complained and were themselves threatened with violations should they not withdraw their complaint.
Food for thought...
Of course one is always careful to ensure they are legal, the paperwork is legal, and the plane is legal before the flight.
FAA Investigations in progress are not a matter of public record.
Nor do we know how many complained and were themselves threatened with violations should they not withdraw their complaint.
Food for thought...
Of course one is always careful to ensure they are legal, the paperwork is legal, and the plane is legal before the flight.
Last edited:
acpilot
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Absolutely true! I knew of no one who did this, by the way.
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