Just How would APA do this?Eagle Jets?

[FightTheFuture]

More and more I've been reading about APA's interest in Eagle RJs. The majority of the Spring 2002 Flightline(APA's newsletter) dealt with scope and the flying done by Eagle RJs. Of course I don't blame them for being concerned about job security, but another APA publication posted in our Eagle crewroom implies that APA wants the RJ's and the flying together. In other words somehow getting rid of Eagle pilots altogether and doing our flying themselves.

My question is how would APA manage to takeover flying from Eagle pilots? Their is speculation that APA would offer a deal with Eagle Alpa to merge the seniority lists if Eagle would accept bottom of the list in lieu of DOH. That would allow AA furloughs to return to flying?

Any thoughts?

 

[Brother Francis]

Sounds like a variation on j4j.

 

[eaglefly]

I belive it is a generally mute situation. AMR will never go for the AA/Eagle pilot seniority merge.

The costs alone to retrain the AA furloughees to do the same job the Eagle pilots are doing would be staggering.

In the EXTREMELY unlikely event that the lists were merged, the Eagle MEC would have to agree. They would never agree to the furlough of half the pilot group to provide jobs for mainline.

It would be a violation of their feduciary responsibility to their membership.

 

[Brother Francis]

"...the Eagle MEC would have to agree. They would never agree to the furlough of half the pilot group to provide jobs for mainline."

That is what is happening at U with the WO's right now. I admit there are differences, but it's not without precedent. Agree or die.

The coroner made an understandable error in his initial assesment of the patient. Noone would have been able to conceive of something being forced up their butts with such force as to appear to have been shoved down their throats.

 

[TWA Dude]

It's my understanding that any such deal would be for subsequently delivered jets, perhaps just those >50 seats, so no additional Eagle furloughs would be needed. The APA is very serious about getting some kind of deal and AMR is very serious about never allowing mainline to fly Small Jets. I wouldn't expect anything to happen soon, if at all.

 

[surplus1]

I belive it is a generally mute situation. AMR will never go for the AA/Eagle pilot seniority merge.

You seem very certain of this and I hope you are right. However, "hope" guarantees nothing. APA is a fox in the hen house and Eagle pilots are the chickens. You'd better pay close attention or they will eat you alive. AMR cares only about the bucks and the APA can give them what they need. If the APA does, you'll be sold down the river in a heartbeat.

The costs alone to retrain the AA furloughees to do the same job the Eagle pilots are doing would be staggering.

Again, you may be making a huge mistake. The APA can give AMR the same costs anytime it wants to. If the need to do that to take your jobs, don't kid yourself, they will do it.

In the EXTREMELY unlikely event that the lists were merged, the Eagle MEC would have to agree. They would never agree to the furlough of half the pilot group to provide jobs for mainline.

Just look at what the ALG/PDT/PSA MEC's have "agreed" to do. Then look at what the MESA MEC is on the verge of "agreeing" to do. ALPA will feed your MEC more of the same kool aid it has been feeding them for years. ALPA's interest is to recruit the pilots of AA. They will sell the Eagle pilots without a second thought in order to do that. Your MEC will agree to what ALPA wants or ALPA will find a way to do it without them. Wake up man, the AA people are trying to take your jobs and YOUR union is helping them to do it.

It would be a violation of their feduciary responsibility to their membership.

If that thought wasn't so sad it would be funny. Tell me when ALPA has NOT violated its feduciary responsibility to its regional pilot members. They will do it again and you will be the victims.

ONLY Eagle pilots can defend the rights of Eagle pilots. No one in Washington is going to do that for you. Your union is defending your enemies. Its time you figured that out before it's too late to do anything about it.

ALPA has a policy and that policy is a political policy that is contrary to the best interest of regional airline pilots. They are following that policy ruthlessly at our expense, where ever and when ever they can get away with it. If you don't figure that out and very soon, they will take your jets and anything else they can and transfer it to the mainline. What YOU are left with is of no concern to them. They have already demonstrated this by their actions. Those actions speak much lowder than their meaningless rhetoric.

Either you fight for what is yours or it will no longer be yours. I'm not attacking you personally, but the idea that they will honor their feduciary responsibility to the Eagle pilots is about as far from reality as it is possible to get. Protect your interests, or you will lose them.

 

[eaglefly]

Many of you who are on the "outside" are arguing apples against oranges.

AA pilots are not ALPA. ALPA national can't assist them in the screwing of "lesser pilots", otherwise they already would have done so, a'la J4J. ALPA has only one dog in this fight - and this fight is not between APA and Eagle ALPA.

Eagle ALREADY has 140 RJ's and contractual rights to fly them. The APA knows the ONLY way to get the current Eagle RJ's is to accept the pilots with them. Previously (prior to the sick-out), the APA offered to fly the RJ's for what the Eagle pilots were flying them in a last ditch effort to get them on their property (even sent their guys over to the Eagle hanger in DFW to "asses" them) using Eagle F/A's, MTX and ramp. AMR wasn't interested.

AMR has repeatedly refused to even consider RJ's at mainline. Won't even discuss it.

Why ?

Because they are fully aware that if the AA pilots secure them it would be difficult, if not impossible to fend off mainline F/A's, mechanics and then rampers.

Now they've got an aircraft that is no longer financially competative with competators who are operating them on regional cost structures.

The APA and Eagle ALPA both are aware that any solution to the outsourcing/whipsawing problem MUST come from cooperation and agreement from both sides.

Personally, again AMR will never consider it.

Sorry Surplus, but your drooling Paranoia won't fly.

 

[AAflyer]

Eaglefly,

You beat me to the punch. Ole Surplus (aka chicken little) thinks the sky is falling over hear too.

I haven't heard a peep that APA wants to get rid of all Eagle pilots and insert ours. Every discussion has been to make one list. All pilots are AA pilots whether you are right seat in a EMJ-135 or a 777.

AMR is putting the screws to the whole pilot group here (eagle and AA). The only way to fight the DON is together, and the more Eagle guys I meet realize that. So do many of the pilots at mainline.

I have countered Surplus's responses, but have grown tired of it. He is wise in the way of the industry but for some reason has most pilots at the majors labled, it is too bad to be that cynical and bitter about some many people. I hope outside of work you are not so paranoid, that would be a horrible way to go through life.

The fight on the AMR property can only be won if we fight together, and both sides I think finally realize this.

Surplus, with all do respect please go spread the hate over in ATL and CVG, we don't want any over here. I sometimes wonder if YOU are not the fox dressed in sheeps clothing.

AAflyer

 

[Slim]

I agree that ALPA does not represent the AA pilot group (APA). However, ALPA does have political motivation to assist the APA in their efforts...they want AA pilots back in ALPA. Assistance rendered by ALPA to APA will be indirect should it happen.

Based upon my experiences at AMR, I agree that small jets won't be flown by mainline with AE F/As, MX, agents, etc, doing all the other work. Crandall said it would never happen, and I can't see the DON doing so.

Fly safe!

 

[surplus1]

I have countered Surplus's responses, but have grown tired of it. He is wise in the way of the industry but for some reason has most pilots at the majors labled, it is too bad to be that cynical and bitter about some many people. I hope outside of work you are not so paranoid, that would be a horrible way to go through life.

Let me help you to "counter" (I managed to miss that you had done so previously) by giving you some insight into my chicken little syndrome and paranoia.

1. Having been a "pilot at a major" before becoming a pilot at a regional, it is easy to label my peers. I know them well.

2. My comments are based on having read the APA's "proposal" for what you define as "working together". I congratulate the APA, the proposal is an excellent concept of how the politically schooled can hoodwink the naive into believing they're on your side.

In reality, the only thing that "proposal" would do, if implemented, is benefit AA pilots at the expense of Eagle pilots. Perhaps the "proposal" is clever enough to convince a majority of the Eagle pilots that AA pilots have seen the light and learned to love them. For thier sake, I hope the Eagle pilots will read it again and recognize it for what it is.

If it were put into effect there would indeed be only one list at AA (something that already exists), the Eagle jets would all be transferred to AA to be flown by AA pilots and whatever was left, if anything, would then fall to Eagle.

One list yes, with few if any Eagle pilots on it. Those few would undoubtedly be current Eagle jet captains who would gain the immesurable benefit of becoming First Officers on the same equipment they now fly as Captains. The generosity of the APA leaves me speechless. Such a deal!

The fight on the AMR property can only be won if we fight together, and both sides I think finally realize this.

I agree completely that the fight can only be won together. If that is truly the belief of the AA pilots, then surely the APA can come up with a proposal that makes togetherness a reality instead of the sham they have put on the table.

I'm sure the Eagle pilots can decide for themselves what they want. I'm also happy that I am not personally burdened by the prospect of having to consider signing on to such a proposal. To put it bluntly, the proposal is garbage.

Surplus, with all do respect please go spread the hate over in ATL and CVG, we don't want any over here. I sometimes wonder if YOU are not the fox dressed in sheeps clothing.

AAFlyer, I have no interest in spreading hate on your property or on mine. Neither am I afraid to call a spade a spade. I realize I could never have the wisdom of a mainline pilot. At the same time I don't mind telling you that there aren't too many mainline pilots or mainline union leaders that can play me for a sucker and dazzle me with BS.

At the risk of being branded as chicken little and accused of paranoia, I don't hesitate to tell you: The APA proposal, plain and simple, is predatory BS!

Want to shut me up and make your "togetherness" real? Then make the APA proposal real by including a no flush proviso that protects the Eagle pilots. Otherwise, it's not worth the paper its written on in my book.

PS. You are of course free to not read "my book" whenever you choose.