Judge Imposed Overtime at Delta - What ever came out of it?

[AMRCostUnit]

This came from your stay-out-of open time campaign. Can you guys educate me on this? Was anyone escorted out of their house and down the jetbridge?

Thanks,
Unit

 

[General Lee]

This came from your stay-out-of open time campaign. Can you guys educate me on this? Was anyone escorted out of their house and down the jetbridge?

Thanks,
Unit

Yeah, this happened just before we settled the C2K contract. It was coming up on Xmas time and pilots just decided they wanted to spend more time with their families, instead of picking up overtime. Well, DL didn't like that, and some GA judge sided with them because "status quo" wasn't being performed. They sued us for not picking up overtime, and won. There were a bunch of guys that were individually sued and all would have lost $100,000 or so each. The union decided to do a campaign to go back to NORMAL flying, which included overtime pick ups. We settled the contract later for the best contract in history.

If you are trying to compare that to now, the Federal Courts cannot get involved with a potential strike. Even our last BK judge, judge Purdy, stated that to our CFO while he was on the stand.


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[inthewind]

Lovin' the avatar General!

 

[General Lee]

Lovin' the avatar General!

Does it distract too much from my message? Or does anyone even listen to my "message"? It is a cool picture. That would be neat seeing that driving down the streets of Fallujah.


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[inthewind]

Don't know about Fallujah, but when I was in the 'Mog' it sure would have helped me pick out the good guys! HSS guns is a beautiful feature in the snake!

 

[AMRCostUnit]

Thanks GL. I was just wondering what the precedent was should we here at AA decide to spend some more time with our families.

Unit

 

[Vastly Underemp]

AMR

Didn't the APA already try that? I think it cost them 40 million or so, although they never really had to pay it.

 

[warbirdfinder]

Yeah, this happened just before we settled the C2K contract. It was coming up on Xmas time and pilots just decided they wanted to spend more time with their families, instead of picking up overtime.

Not quite that simple, if I remember correctly, many comments were being posted on the ALPA Forum that encouraged and advocated the practice of not picking up any open time. The attorneys considered these postings as an illegal job action during contract negotiations, thus suing ALPA and individual pilots posting these comments. I didn't believe that Delta should have taken that road, but you know how attorneys operate.

 

[AMRCostUnit]

AMR

Didn't the APA already try that? I think it cost them 40 million or so, although they never really had to pay it.

That was a sick-out. I'm talking about not going into open time and picking anything up after begining of the month conflicts and/or going over the 78 monthly max to 83.

Manning is so tight this would create huge problems for the company. That is leverage for us if we had the collective will.

Many are very unhappy with the "PUP" bonuses that will be paid out to the 1000 managers in April. It is a cash bonus of over $100 million right off the bottom line. It is tied strictly to stock price and has nothing to do with performance.

We had been looking at some ways to help the company with productivity increases and the like and then they go ahead and do this. The payout could be over 200 million in both 2007 and 2008. It is seen as nothing but a transfer of wealth from our pockets to theirs. Potentially $500 million cash payouts to managers of a company that is has lost billions and is billions in debt. Just doesn't add up to us.

My frustration with this is manifested itself in my "Future Press Release - AA FO's Quit" thread a few weeks ago. I felt better anyway.

http://forums.flightinfo.com/showthread.php?t=75250&page=2&highlight=future+press+release

Unit

 

[AMRCostUnit]

The attorneys considered these postings as an illegal job action during contract negotiations, thus suing ALPA and individual pilots posting these comments. I didn't believe that Delta should have taken that road, but you know how attorneys operate.

Ahh, there is the key. "During contract negotiation." We are not in Section 6.

 

[Vastly Underemp]

That is leverage for us if we had the collective will.


And that, my friend, will be the problem. History has shown that if there's open flying to be done, there are greedy pr**ks there that will do it.

BTW, I saw your missive, "FO quits" and it was completely hysterical. I hadn't laughed that hard in a long while. I think it qualifies as fiction uncomfortably close to the bone.

 

[atlcrashpad]

Does it distract too much from my message? Or does anyone even listen to my "message"? It is a cool picture. That would be neat seeing that driving down the streets of Fallujah.


Bye Bye--General Lee

General,

No, it does not distract from your messages. I had a solid black paint job on my Hummv in Iraq. Cool looking only, that made it hot as hell in the summer.

 

[Tomct]

:uzi:Yeah GL, great picture. Hopefully the guys in it use that gun on top to put down some SERIOUS LEAD on the insurgents. HEE HEE

 

[inthewind]

Ain't nothin' like the ol' Ma Duece to throw some serious lead downrange!

 

[FDJ2]

If you are trying to compare that to now, the Federal Courts cannot get involved with a potential strike. Even our last BK judge, judge Purdy, stated that to our CFO while he was on the stand.
Bye Bye--General Lee

GL, good point. Another difference between then and now is that during C2K we were in section 6 negotiatons to amend our contract. During section 6 negotiations both sides must adhere to the status quo until released for self help. "Status quo" entails not only the written contract, but also past practices, which may or may not be in the PWA. We are not in section 6 negotiations today. Whole different ball game.

 

[FDJ2]

Ahh, there is the key. "During contract negotiation." We are not in Section 6.

BINGO!!!!!

 

[JohnQ]

Thanks GL. I was just wondering what the precedent was should we here at AA decide to spend some more time with our families.

Unit

My advice is to mind your own business and not worry about what other pilots do or do not do. IF your union leadership states, "we are directing a LEGAL AND LAWFUL withholding of service IAW the Railway Labor Act" (i.e. it will never happen until you are at least beyond a 30-day cooling off period) then and only then should you impress upon other pilots that they should not fly open time. Until that moment, anyone who says that another pilot should "toe the line" (without any sort of direction other than anonymous postings on a bulletin board or bathroom stalls) is crossing into "goon/thug" territory.

A few years ago we had an American captain on the jumpseat, shortly after your sickout. He asked me, "how would you like it if you showed up for a trip, just like any other trip you've ever flown, and guys are calling you a SCAB because you did not call in sick?" See my point? When some anonymous "they" (who never publicly identify themselves--oh no, that is only for the "bad guys") decide what others should or should not do, rarely do things turn out better for the pilot group.

That does not mean that you SHOULD fly OT. If you are (rightfully) angry about yet another mgmt ploy to steal more $ for themselves, I understand. If you wish to spend more time at home, knock yourself out. I myself never fly OT, because I am too busy at home. But you can't make that decision for others. It also opens up a whole other can of worms.

If a guy drops a trip, and then picks up another to make up the time, is he "picking up overtime?"

If a guy's initial bid award results in a high time line, merely due to the end result of the bid run, is he a "bad guy" for not trying to trade a four-day trip for a three-day so as to reduce his monthly total? How would you know? How would his monthly totals be any different than another guy who picked up a one-day trip after a three-day?

At DAL you can see if a guy picks up time, but you can't see if he swapped a low-time trip for a higher one. Are you going to check out every individual pilot's schedule and try and track what they are or are not doing every day, all so they can "spend more time with their families?"

Etc.

 

[Bavarian Chef]

We settled the contract later for the best contract in history.

Sorry General, that's kinda funny.

 

[FlyingSig]

Even our last BK judge, judge Purdy, stated that to our CFO while he was on the stand.

GL,

Go back and read the transcripts. Prudence did not say that federal courts could not get involved. She told Ed that she didn't think SHE could stop a strike. And she's right. Bankruptcy court is not where one would go to get an injuction for such matters nor does the bankruptcy court have any jurisdiction in such matters.

However, don't think for a New York minute that Delta wouldn't go to a different courthouse and get such an injunction. We should not be afraid of this... the ATA should .... because it's a precident that needs to be set and something that does indeed need to be defined (personally I don't see how any judge could say you are enjoined by the RLA after a contract gets tossed, but with the current administration in the white house, nothing would surprise me).

So what does that mean for Delta pilots? Do you think our leadership is strong enough to act like the New York transit workers and ignore an injuction? Somehow, I don't see that happening here. It would be nice, and it would force labor to the national spotlight again, but I've seen nothing to suggest this is our stategy.

My concern is the precident we set while working without a contract while the right to strike issue makes its way through all the courts. I would hope at the very least we could get an injuction to prevent the contract from getting tossed while the case is being heard. Of course Delta probably does have the gumption to ignore their injuction.....

 

[FlyingSig]

Even our last BK judge, judge Purdy, stated that to our CFO while he was on the stand.

GL,

Go back and read the transcripts. Prudence did not say that federal courts could not get involved. She told Ed that she didn't think SHE could stop a strike. And she's right. Bankruptcy court is not where one would go to get an injuction for such matters nor does the bankruptcy court have any jurisdiction in such matters.

However, don't think for a New York minute that Delta wouldn't go to a different courthouse and get such an injunction. We should not be afraid of this... the ATA should .... because it's a precident that needs to be set and something that does indeed need to be defined (personally I don't see how any judge could say you are enjoined by the RLA after a contract gets tossed, but with the current administration in the white house, nothing would surprise me).

So what does that mean for Delta pilots? Do you think our leadership is strong enough to act like the New York transit workers and ignore an injuction? Somehow, I don't see that happening here. It would be nice, and it would force labor to the national spotlight again, but I've seen nothing to suggest this is our stategy.

My concern is the precident we set while working without a contract while the right to strike issue makes its way through all the courts. I would hope at the very least we could get an injuction to prevent the contract from getting tossed while the case is being heard. Of course Delta probably does have the gumption to ignore their injuction.....