job posting found online...

[CL60]

caveat

New aircraft to certificate and owner so usage is estimated at 700 hours a year

Schedule will vary, no guaranteed days off.

A third Pilot may be added at a later date if deemed necesary due to amount of flying.

If deemed necessary? No guaranteed days off? You must be kidding! The add should read:

"Wanted, full time slave. Must be willing to go without adequate rest, pleasure, or a personal life"

I'm still amazed when I see this kind of tripe advertised. It is unfortunate evidence of how our worth as pilots is perceived by some operators... Or they don't have a clue how to manage a jet.

 

[750driver]

CL60 ... I agree with you

Even though I am not currently flying, I'm still selective about flying positions. I could never understand these guys that would do "anything" just to fly. Flying is important to me, but I only have one life ... and I'm not willing to give it up for an hour of flight time (or work for free, for that matter). If you don't have respect for yourself as a pilot, how can you expect an employer to have any?

 

[CL60]

Out of work

750,

Believe me, I've been there too and know how it feels to be out of the cockpit. I feel for all my fellow aviators out there who are grounded and do all I can to help them generate leads including giving them tips on how I developed a good job hunting strategy after years of experience at it. I like to think that the personal help I've given to some of the people on this message board has helped them, in some small way, to get back into the cockpit again.

Some poor soul will eventually take this Gbird job to feed their family or take it because they know no better... 2 years to burnout, tops.

Is it possible to obtain fair and humane working conditions for all professional pilots? Unfortunately, probably not. As long as the economics of suppy and demand are against us, there are employers out there who will take advantage of desperate people.

 

[El Cid Av8or]

I guess the beer goggles went on when I saw the need for a Gulfstream pilot.

Yes, with 237 hours, I will do anything to fly but I do have limitations to that. I have to be able to see and spend time with my family because they are 1000% supportive of my move from a boring IT job to my dream job of flying corporate jets. Right now though, If someone were willing to pay me minimum wage to finish up my ratings so I didn't have to pay out $185/hr + instructor for twin time, I'd take it and take it with pride. I call it adapt, improvise, and overcome. I'm willing to eat PB&J sandwiches for a while so I can have nice steaks later on. I just love to fly. Will flying a lot for a living burn me out? I doubt it unless I was flying crappy unmaintained aircraft and had a bunch of jerks to work with and that's all there was. Driving a race car every day hasn't changed Mark Martin's view.

700 hours/year is a lot of time to be hopping around the globe in an expensive jet. I hope the company that owns it was built on a good foundation. Paraphrasing what some folks mentioned, they will "run out of pilots" and they will do it quickly too.


See ya'll on the airways!

 

[capt_zman]

El Cid,

Get in line behind the other 10,000 $luts in front of you. There are no bargains, go spend the 185 + instructor (who happens to be ahead of you in the same line and more qualified) and wait your turn.

So sick of hearing this crap. Does nothing but destroy the industry.

 

[El Cid Av8or]

capt_zman:

Sorry to have appeared to be "destroying the industry" as that is not what I intend to do. Yes, I am hungry for an aviation career but I will pay my dues and await my turn and eat those PB&J sandwiches while I do it. I guess at 0400 I should find other ways of trying to get back to sleep than typing posts here. The statements I made toward FalconCapt have been deleted. They were non-durrogatory to FalconCapt or anyone else for that matter, they just portrayed me as not who I really am.

Again, my appologies if I portrayed myself as a $lut as that is not who I really am. I just want to fly airplanes and fly them a lot.

Peace and tailwinds.

 

[750driver]

El Cid Av8or's Quote: "If someone were willing to pay me minimum wage to finish up my ratings so I didn't have to pay out $185/hr + instructor for twin time, I'd take it and take it with pride. I call it adapt, improvise, and overcome. I'm willing to eat PB&J sandwiches for a while so I can have nice steaks later on."

I hate to break the news to you ... when you compromise your self-worth for an underpaid position, you'll be lucky to ever see the "nice steaks" later on. Think about that for a while, and then do what you feel you need to do. Someday, you'll be in that GIV looking for a better contract, but you won't get it because some new guy is willing to work for PB&J to fly your aircraft

 

[El Cid Av8or]

Okay, folks. I have obviously gotten myself into a major storm here so let me see if I can navigate out of it.

Here's the way I see how the aviation industry works:
1) A person spends thousands of dollars to get his or her ratings. This is where the PB&J sandwiches are eaten.
2) That person works the low-paying jobs like instructing, freight, pipe lines, etc (these are what I have found to be the entry-level jobs by hours of research; mentioning them is not intended to be mean to anyone). Still eating the PB&J sandwiches...
3) After building well over a thousand hours of time and gaining some valuable experience, that person hopefully has the qualifications to get into a regional airline or, as I want to, corporate aviation. Now we can go out to eat and when we eat at home, it's got more variety.
4) A few more years of experience and we actually see that person in the front left seat more than the front right one. Now we can put a bottle of wine on the table and get desert when we go out to eat and the steaks are on the grill at home.
5) As years pass and more hours of experience are put in the log book, we get to fly the Gulfstreams, Global Express
Jets, Boeing Business Jets, etc. (or the B767, B777, A321, etc). So now we can have steaks with the works every night whether is be at home or out on the town.

Is this the wrong plan? Am I missing something here? It's going to be a long rough ride ahead but to me, it's well worth it.

Here's my situation so bear with me for a moment... I am 31 about to be 32. I just got married in July. I have wanted to fly since I was two (so my parents tell me). I've had my license for just over 10 years and I only have 237.3 hours, 10.1 of which are in a twin. I am leaving a decent-paying but frustrating, stressful and boring IT job to pursue a life-long dream. I dare anyone to try to steal that dream because, well, you won't. I will not do any PFT and that has not even crossed my mind. I will not fly a $45 million Gulfstream for PB&J sandwiches and I would say that anyone who would needs to go ahead and have a labotomy on what little brain they have. Would I take a pay cut from (for example only) $175,000/year to $150,000/year for a while because the economy sucks? Yes, if I loved the job and the people I work with. That's it. I have pride in myself but I am not too proud to go without doing what I love to do most just because my employer wants to cut my pay because he/she can't afford it due to the economy and that was his/her reason for doing so and there was concrete proof of it.

I can take being called a $lut as I have been called much worse than most of you have ever dreamed for no reason at all. Anyone that has gone through boot camp or a military school knows what I am talking about here. If you haven't, that does not mean that you are not any less of a person than I am as I am sure you have each had you own hard experiences.

All I meant when I said what I said was this: Some people are too proud and too much caught up in what they have (physical things, 21 days off a month instead of only 15, etc) and are not willing to give anything up for a while to keep doing what makes them happy the most. In no way am I going to steal someone's job that they have spent a lot of their time and money to respectfully earn. That would catch up with me in the long run if not the short one. I sure would not want someone to do it to me either. Like I said before...I just want to fly airplanes for a living. If someone wanted to help me out by giving me a low-paying job to help me fund my training, then I would take it. If that person could afford a respectable salary for a more experienced pilot but was just using me for his/her own greedy needs, I'd turn it down in a heartbeat because it's not fair to the people who have already gone through the tough times and are looking for jobs.

Now, we are all professionals here so let's keep it that way. I am open to criticism but I prefer the constructive kind. I am also requesting guidance and friendly advice regarding my aviation career (and other areas of life too). I am not perfect though I try to be. Flame suit is on but if you are going to through a flame, keep your professional demeanor and send me a private message.

 

[banned username 2]

El Cid....

Good Post....

I will happily answer all questions you have regarding Corporate Aviation and how to get there...

I am 34, married and have a kid... worked my way up from 0 to 237.3 hours to where I am today...

It's a long hard road, but if it is what you truely want to do it is well worth it... and in no way an insurmountable task...

Falcon Capt...

 

[FL350]

Age old debate...

This is a classic example of the young whipper snapper and his new ideas vs the old codger and his time tested practices. This argument has been battled out time and again on this forum. Whether you are in the airlines, a corp. flight dept or a flight school you are part of the big seniority list of pilots. The old guys want to keep their high paying jobs and their big glass cockpits. The young guys just want a chance to look at the cockpit and smell the steaks the old guys are eating. Each feels a little threatened by the other. Each needs to understand where the other is coming from.

We should all try to remember the age old saying...What goes around comes around. You young guys will all one day be old guys. The jobs you are taking from the old guys at a cut throat rate will be the same jobs that young guys will be taking from you one day. You old guys quickly forget the breaks that people might have given you one day. Give these young guys a break. Have you ever helped someone and regretted it? Sure it may have cost you a little, but look at the good it did someone else.

Right now the industry is a great place to be if you are an employer. The pilots are having to suck it up and take the cuts. It's not how you perform when its easy that counts its how you perform when the $hit hits the fan. If this job was easy anyone would do it. The market will get better.