Job opening....bend over

[hyper]

January 15, 2003
USA JET (DC-9 & Falcon 20 Pilots)
Detroit, Michigan
Tel: no calls
Fax: none
Email: EZ-Apply not available for this job
Web Site: http://www.activeaero.com
Applicants who do not meet our minimum requirements will not be considered. Please make sure that you meet the minimum requirements listed below before applying. If you do not meet the requirements at this time, please wait and apply once you do meet these requirements. MINIMUM JOB REQUIREMENTS: Have ATP certificate or ATP written. No felony convictions. No convictions for DUI/DWI within the last 7 years. No misdemeanor convictions within the last 7 years. Be willing to take a drug test. Be able to furnish proof of eligibility for employment in the United States. Able to relocate to Detroit/Willow Run area. Be willing to work scheduled holidays, weekends, and must be willing to report to the airport within 20 minutes of being paged.
Be willing to sign a 24 month, $18,000 training agreement/contract. Visit our website to apply!

Whooo, sign me up! Jesus, here we go into another "get bent" era. More signs of the times.

 

[nosewheel]

Just the thought of re-locating to YIP puts tears of joy in my eyes.. yeh right

 

[hyper]

And then have to live next to the airport.....nice 'hood.

 

[72Longhorn]

USA Jet

Do you get a type rating for the $18,000 contract??? I wouldn't sign a contract for that much money unless they had something of equal value in return.

72

 

[Jetscream32]

Don't do it

This is just a way for them to make more $ easily. I sent my resume in to them about six months ago and followed up with a phone call two days later. The chief pilot told me that COMPETITVE mins. were around 3000 and 500 jet with some PIC. Don't waste your money, they can't even assure you they are even going to have class dates anytime soon.

 

[ifly4food]

Guys... this is not new. It was discussed here about a month ago.

This is a freight operator at Willow Run airport in Detroit. They fly DA20s and DC9s. Send ATP Cliff a message and he'll tell you all about them.

It is not terribly uncommon for freight companies to require training contracts. It is a very high turnover segment, especially when jets are concerned. They aren't asking you to pay for training, they just want to make sure they get thier money's worth out of their investment.

And BTW, the YIP area is not a ghetto. It's actually a very blue-collar, working class neighborhood. Speak not of that which you don't know.

 

[Captain X]

I agree about the comments concerning the YIP area. It's not bad at all. There are very nice apartments within a 5 minute drive of the airport, plenty of amenities, and Ann Arbor is only about a 25-30 minute drive which has college bars, nice restaurants, etc.

YIP is not like Detoilet.

Thread creep I know......

As far as the $18K training contract to fly a DC9 or Falcon.....not unless it's prorated on a monthly basis and it involves a type-rating up front. And no personal cash outlay unless you leave prior to the contract being fulfilled.

Only small jet operators are gonna be hiring for the next 2 years anyhow.

 

[ifly4food]

As far as the $18K training contract to fly a DC9 or Falcon.....not unless it's prorated on a monthly basis and it involves a type-rating up front. And no personal cash outlay unless you leave prior to the contract being fulfilled.

Only small jet operators are gonna be hiring for the next 2 years anyhow.

Please tell me what is wrong with a company wanting to protect its investment. They are not asking anyone to put up any money at all. They're saying they will pay $18,000 for your training, but they want you to work there for two years. I see no problem with a small company thinking this way. It's only two years... if someone's in it to get some jet time and leave, then maybe they should go elsewhere.

And no, I don't work there, never have. I just hate to see the sense of entitlement many pilots have. Companies don't exist to employ pilots. The sooner we realize that, the better off this industry will be.

 

[ClassG]

True, but you still have to pay the $38.00 application fee for "psychological evaluation."

Nice.

If they really wanted to fill a position with the best qualified people, they'd interview you BEFORE the "Personality Tests" begin. Seems like someone's going to profit on the 10,000 applications paid for by those looking to fill the three positions they've got.

$38 is not worth it to be added to a pile that high, unless you're typed in the Falcon or DC9 already. Then, maybe, you'll get your money's worth and be called for an interview.

 

[A Squared]

Please tell me what is wrong with a company wanting to protect its investment. They are not asking anyone to put up any money at all. They're saying they will pay $18,000 for your training, but they want you to work there for two years.

I'm not necessarily against a company trying to protect it's investment, but is this company trying to protect it's investment, or trying to extort money from it's employees?

First, is $18,000 a reasonable amount? You can get a 737 type reating for what? $6-7000 ? what makes a Falcon so special? Sure, there's some company specific training that is done at a 121 carrier that wouldn't be covered in quickee type rating course, but how much does it really cost to sit a group of pilots in a room with folding chairs and talk at them for a week? certainly not the differecne between $7,000 and $18,000.

Do you actually get a type rating out of this, or is it a couple of sim sessions and a few takeoffs and landings on empty legs then you're "checked out" as a F/O. If that's the case, it gets a little harder to justify putting an $18,000 price tag on their training.

Lastly is it prorated? if you leave after 23 months, but before 24 months do you owe them $750 or do you owe them $18,000? If you owe the whole thing after flying for 23 months, than it's pretty obvious that thier intent is to extort money from their employees.

The devil is in the details.

regards

 

[trainerjet]

The solution is simple. If this is not something that interests you, don't apply.

I doubt that anyone will change anything by ranting about it on this board.

 

[A Squared]

The solution is simple. If this is not something that interests you, don't apply.

I doubt that anyone will change anything by ranting about it on this board.

I wasn't aware that I was ranting. I thought I was describing how I would decide in my own mind whether I thought a training contract was a legiitmate effort to protect a company's training investment, or whether it was just a means of taking money from employees.

I'm not interested in USA jet, with or without a training contract, but that shouldn't exclude me from posting my thoughts on an issue that in some ways affects all of us who fly for a living.

regards

 

[Hubie]

Please tell me what is wrong with a company wanting to protect its investment...

I just hate to see the sense of entitlement many pilots have. Companies don't exist to employ pilots. The sooner we realize that, the better off this industry will be.

I too have bounced back and forth about that very same word, entitlement.

It does seem as if a good number of pilots feel, thru their words and actions that they are entitled to their training, that at some point it no longer becomes their responsibility to pay to continue their education by climbing the ratings ladder.

At what point should I refuse/stop to pay for my own education/training anymore, at the commercial level, CFI or the ATP?

What about those folks who are purchasing 737 types or have purchased 737 types to apply to Southwest?

The way I see it is this…

It is fine for me to buy as many ratings and types as my meager ole checkbook will afford as long as I’m not buying the job. (These two ideas are fundamentally different)
If I still must apply and interview, be placed in the pot with everyone else and the best candidate win I see nothing wrong with it.
IMO buying a type rating is nothing more than that, signing a training contract is nothing more than that.

You paid for your training as an investment in your future, the company paid for your training as an investment in its future.

Hubie

 

[trainerjet]

A Squared,

Sorry. My post wasn't directed at you or your post. I guess it's just where it fell in the stack, after your post, but I was just commenting in general about this particular job opening, and the subject of the thread.

Your posts are generally well thought out and informative.

 

[hyper]

If this is just a matter of them "protecting their investment", then why have they just started this? A year ago they didn't have such a contract. I do remember that. They're doing this now because they can. Because there are hard-up pilots eager for a job in todays market and they are taking advantage of that. Protecting their investment is understandable, and no, it's not an "entitlement" issue fly4. $18k is excessive no matter how you slice it and expecting someone to report to the field at any given page within 20 minutes is utterly ridiculous. Sounds like a way to hold someones feet to the fire once you've signed that contract.

The ironic part is that they have it backwards. They should have been asking for this contract back when jobs were easy and pilots were jumping ship for better things. They're asking for it now in a market where if you have a job you're going to stick with it because there are so few out there only because someone will be desperate enough to pay it. Sure, it's their option and someone will do it, but that doesn't mean it's justifiable.

As a side note: Airnet used to have a $7k training agreement for a year with a $1,000 signing bonus when jobs were plenty. Nothing out of pocket, just wanted you to stay a year. That's gone now. They know that it's unlikely you'll be going anywhere.

 

[getonit]

I think $18,000 is unreasonable especially if it is not prorated. But the way "to get out" is to have them fire you as opposed to quitting and with a 20 minute show time looks like you could have plenty of chances to screw up.

 

[hyper]

EXACTLY my point. Thanks.

 

[bobbysamd]

Training contracts v. you-know-what

I, too, recall this ad from before. The irony, if that's the right word, of them demanding the $18K training contract now as compared to even 1½ years ago is apparent.

As Trainerjet wrote above, no one is holding a gun to your head. I don't have a problem with signing training contracts as opposed to the unpopular other form of covering/recouping training costs. I signed a contract when I joined FSI and I would do it again. Moreover, this one's for two years; chances are there won't be much going on for such pilots for two years. In addtion, DC-9 time, especially PIC, might mean something in two years.

On the other hand, I agree; $18K is a bunch of committment. Besides, I don't think I'd care to be on a 20-minute pager notice for reasons others stated above.

 

[hyper]

And BTW, the YIP area is not a ghetto. It's actually a very blue-collar, working class neighborhood. Speak not of that which you don't know.

I never indicated that it was the ghetto. I figure you must have assumed that because I used the term "'hood"? It's short for neighborhood, not ghetto. And yes, I've been there-spent a month I'll never get back...wasn't impressed.

"Speak not of that which you don't know"? Thanks for keeping me policed but my statement is a matter of opinion. I am entitled to that, no?

 

[LR25]

USAJet, there actually not a bad company to be with.

Whatever the contract states, thats what it is.

No one is asking you to give them 18K, that is just the binder on your training.

If you owe up to "your" commitment, they will owe it to you.

And I do believe there history shows about a 1 year upgrade, things obviously havnt been normal lately but I do believe that is the norm.

The fact that some of you are complaining about companies wanting to protect there investment might be the reason these companies have to do this(no bashing intended).

I do believe though, that USAJet had a slew of folks go through there program (Simu-Flite initial DA-20) and right after they got there type, they quite and went to work for someone else that required them to have the type rating.

Put 2 and 2 together, and a company can not survive if they keep taking loses like that.

This is nothing new in the industry, and I dont consider it PFT.

Oh yeah, from what I have seen if YIP and the surrounding area. it doesnt seem that bad, I have definitely seen worse.