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JO and pilots wages
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beechdriver
Active member
- Joined
- Jun 7, 2002
- Posts
- 43
mckpickle said:
Hey pickle, wasn't it you that said:
"...Face it you voted yes because you were scared. You have no insight and no sense of history. Otherwise you would have understood that you were condemned to repeat it. The excuse that you did this for your family is short sighted and weak... But rest assured you have lost the respect of the entire industry..."
I guess the "history lesson" was lost on your own pilot group as well. The sh!t always looks a bit different when it's falling in your own backyard, doesn't it? Don't worry, though - I still respect you...and you are always welcome in my jumpseat.
nimtz
Well-known member
- Joined
- Dec 5, 2001
- Posts
- 1,442
beechdriver said:
McPickle's pilot group hasn't taken a single concession yet and furthermore is actively working for better despite the damage the Mesa contract has done to our profession. BTW, the contract mcpickle's pilot group works under is almost as good as Mesa's new TA. Only problem was it was agreed to several years ago. Please be smarter with your insults...
SanJuanPlebe
Active member
- Joined
- Mar 18, 2003
- Posts
- 30
Whose the Jerkoff?
Huh?
He's a jerkoff because he used your own words to question what happened on YOUR property?
Your logic is flawed. Our contract was WORSE before our new TA but yet you guys never bitched about "having to compete" with Mesa before.
So why would you have to "compete with Mesa" now? Seems to me you are just looking for someone to blame for your lot in life. The industry is in shambles yet Mesa pilots were able to secure enhancements while practically everyone else is taking concessions! Ever think maybe we got it right? Our scope provisions, the strongest yet, may save your job one day. Hopefully it will help our friends at Mesaba......
If you start worrying about what every other airline is doing, you'll go mad.
Let's be professionals and worry about our own houses.
Mesa has all the business we can handle (agreed to PRIOR to our new TA). We can't handle anymore and we can't train the pilots fast enough or obtain financing for planes that we've already ordered!
Read what Boo said earlier in a post on this thread. I think he's dead on.
Worry about Air Wisconsin...NOT Mesa. It's already done. You're beating a dead horse. And witholding a jumpseat is not only against ALPA policy, it's juvenile. We're all professionals here...let's act like them.
The Plebe
A loser who "bought his job" and went to MAPD instead of being a "real pilot" who flew freight for "thousands of hours" in order to be "worthy" of a regional airline pilot job.
I hope you detect the saracasm because I'm laying on pretty thick. We're all pilots...we all took the same checkrides and tests. The "I'm a better pilot" thing belongs in another thread......
Huh?
He's a jerkoff because he used your own words to question what happened on YOUR property?
Your logic is flawed. Our contract was WORSE before our new TA but yet you guys never bitched about "having to compete" with Mesa before.
So why would you have to "compete with Mesa" now? Seems to me you are just looking for someone to blame for your lot in life. The industry is in shambles yet Mesa pilots were able to secure enhancements while practically everyone else is taking concessions! Ever think maybe we got it right? Our scope provisions, the strongest yet, may save your job one day. Hopefully it will help our friends at Mesaba......
If you start worrying about what every other airline is doing, you'll go mad.
Let's be professionals and worry about our own houses.
Mesa has all the business we can handle (agreed to PRIOR to our new TA). We can't handle anymore and we can't train the pilots fast enough or obtain financing for planes that we've already ordered!
Read what Boo said earlier in a post on this thread. I think he's dead on.
Worry about Air Wisconsin...NOT Mesa. It's already done. You're beating a dead horse. And witholding a jumpseat is not only against ALPA policy, it's juvenile. We're all professionals here...let's act like them.
The Plebe
A loser who "bought his job" and went to MAPD instead of being a "real pilot" who flew freight for "thousands of hours" in order to be "worthy" of a regional airline pilot job.
I hope you detect the saracasm because I'm laying on pretty thick. We're all pilots...we all took the same checkrides and tests. The "I'm a better pilot" thing belongs in another thread......
SanJuanPlebe
Active member
- Joined
- Mar 18, 2003
- Posts
- 30
Jumpseat McPickle
OK,
Go ahead, deny us the jumpseat...use what little power you have in the industry to show us what a true idiot you are.
That's OK though...you're still welcome on our jumpseat. We won't revert to juvenile tactics that really don't matter to a hill of beans in the grand scheme of things. We're all about getting people to see their families or god forbid, to work. We don't play games with our jumpseat.
This stuff belongs in high school...
And the last time I checked, you had to be 23 to hold an ATP...someone who was long done with high school...
What a jacka$$! All you are doing is making yourself feel better. Be part of the solution...not part of the problem....Denying a jumpseat makes you part of the problem...it surely doesn't change anything other than to piss people off against you when now is the time we all need to stick together!
The Plebe
Loser Et. al....
OK,
Go ahead, deny us the jumpseat...use what little power you have in the industry to show us what a true idiot you are.
That's OK though...you're still welcome on our jumpseat. We won't revert to juvenile tactics that really don't matter to a hill of beans in the grand scheme of things. We're all about getting people to see their families or god forbid, to work. We don't play games with our jumpseat.
This stuff belongs in high school...
And the last time I checked, you had to be 23 to hold an ATP...someone who was long done with high school...
What a jacka$$! All you are doing is making yourself feel better. Be part of the solution...not part of the problem....Denying a jumpseat makes you part of the problem...it surely doesn't change anything other than to piss people off against you when now is the time we all need to stick together!
The Plebe
Loser Et. al....
mckpickle
Well-known member
- Joined
- Aug 5, 2002
- Posts
- 1,242
Yup, I'm making myself feel better as Im stuck with sh1tty raises and wondering if I'll have a job because MESA decides to work for free.
Yup I feel better that the whisky guys have to take pay cuts to compete with you.
Yup I feel better that because your are a bunch of week spineless pricks that will work for nothing it will effect my life.
Yup I'm happy I work in an industry thats in a race to the bottom and you morrons are the poster children.
Yup I feel better shooting an aproach down to mins after a 14 hour/ 6 leg day because heck, the MESA guys are willing to do it so to compete everyone else has to.
You people discust me.
Yup I feel better that the whisky guys have to take pay cuts to compete with you.
Yup I feel better that because your are a bunch of week spineless pricks that will work for nothing it will effect my life.
Yup I'm happy I work in an industry thats in a race to the bottom and you morrons are the poster children.
Yup I feel better shooting an aproach down to mins after a 14 hour/ 6 leg day because heck, the MESA guys are willing to do it so to compete everyone else has to.
You people discust me.
SanJuanPlebe
Active member
- Joined
- Mar 18, 2003
- Posts
- 30
McPickel
OK,
Now that we've both insulted each other, let's have a reasonable and healthy debate on the finer points. No rhetoric please.
It's easy to toss stones, but look at Stillaboo's earlier post. He paints an acurate picture.
We raced to get "released" by the NMB, but AMW5481 put a halt to all negotiations (appropriatly I might add).
With no end in sight, Airways putting the pressure on, and a bipolar Boss who in my opinion would sell his soul for a buck, what would you do differently?
And let me inform you, NO ONE at Mesa is happy with our contract. So if you want to take your ire out on someone, do it to the Freedom Guys (the original guys before the TA). In my opinion, JO (Lorenzo) and THOSE guys enabled this situation to arise.
What do you do?
The Plebe
OK,
Now that we've both insulted each other, let's have a reasonable and healthy debate on the finer points. No rhetoric please.
It's easy to toss stones, but look at Stillaboo's earlier post. He paints an acurate picture.
We raced to get "released" by the NMB, but AMW5481 put a halt to all negotiations (appropriatly I might add).
With no end in sight, Airways putting the pressure on, and a bipolar Boss who in my opinion would sell his soul for a buck, what would you do differently?
And let me inform you, NO ONE at Mesa is happy with our contract. So if you want to take your ire out on someone, do it to the Freedom Guys (the original guys before the TA). In my opinion, JO (Lorenzo) and THOSE guys enabled this situation to arise.
What do you do?
The Plebe
Herman Bloom
Well-known member
- Joined
- Feb 20, 2003
- Posts
- 181
Plebe,
Why do we (ACA, Air Wisconsin, Skywest) have to comete with you? Because United just put its Express contracts up for bidding, that's why. And Mesa is the low bidder.
Don't get me wrong...I think our management should do their best to offer United a slightly lower package than the current one. If UAL picks Mesa for their lower cost structure, then so be it. I'd rather be out of this BS business altogether than pimp an otherwise successful regional airline out to a possibly dying partner. What I hope will happen is that United will keep ACA on as an Express carrier, especially considering the large infrastructure we have in place to serve their markets. That would be great, especially if Mesa didn't get a piece. It would suck for you guys, but hey, as so many have argued on this board, "that's business".
The point is we have to compete now because now is when the Express bidding is happening. Now that wasn't so hard, was it?
Why do we (ACA, Air Wisconsin, Skywest) have to comete with you? Because United just put its Express contracts up for bidding, that's why. And Mesa is the low bidder.
Don't get me wrong...I think our management should do their best to offer United a slightly lower package than the current one. If UAL picks Mesa for their lower cost structure, then so be it. I'd rather be out of this BS business altogether than pimp an otherwise successful regional airline out to a possibly dying partner. What I hope will happen is that United will keep ACA on as an Express carrier, especially considering the large infrastructure we have in place to serve their markets. That would be great, especially if Mesa didn't get a piece. It would suck for you guys, but hey, as so many have argued on this board, "that's business".
The point is we have to compete now because now is when the Express bidding is happening. Now that wasn't so hard, was it?
mckpickle
Well-known member
- Joined
- Aug 5, 2002
- Posts
- 1,242
Re: McPickel
I accept your challenge.
First off I think you should have been in touch with the other regional. I know for a fact that your negotiating committee did not accept all the offers for assistance that were offered. Not that they turned down tangible help but more liked they panicked and turned a deaf ear.
2, The thing that really upsets me is that you fell for JO's crap. Just because he shut down CC air didn't mean he could do it to the whole company. Lets face it, JO cut off an arm to try to "save" the body. More like try to scare everyone else. But he wasn't going to shoot himself in the head while only his @ss(freedom) was to survive. Point is Mesa is a publicly traded company. JO is responsible to shareholders and a Board of Directors. Just because he has some airplanes and 87 mother-less SOB's SCABS go to freedom did not constitute and airline. He would not have been able to salvage the entity and transfer it to Freedom. I liked his voice message while all this was going on. He made it sound as if the Freedom guys were "saving the airline". Tell ya what, ask a couple hundred CAL guys how they tried to "save the airline" in 83. I hope the Freedom guys are regarded with the same respect.
What needed to be done was simple. Call his bluff. Thats it. You might not have been able to strike. I understand your mediator was a morron and probably played slap and tickle with JO. But how much would it have taken to work a slowdown? Granted not legal but pretty godd@mn effective. But you didn't even let it get to that. Had your guys gotten to a slowdown JO's next move would have been to take a few hostages. Fire a couple people for stupid things. And if you guys caved before a fight than there is no way you would have had the backbones to make it through that!
Now Im not mad about what my w2 says. Im mad for two reasons.
1. My future and job security is less secure because Mesa threatens the flying that I currently do. Maybe not now, maybe not next year. But when Mesa is twice the size they will.
And on a side note the regional industry is going to be in trouble in 5-7 years. Heres why. In the late 90's early 2000. All the airlines were putting larger planes on routes, getting rid of props for jets and trying to make the airspace more efficient due to airspace congestion. So in a few years when it starts all over there will still be all these regional around only now there will be LESS demand for them. Ie why take an arrival/departure slot with a 50 seat RJ when you can do it with a 120 seat 73? So there will be less flying for us because of less yield. That will cause us to FURTHER COMPETE! How are we supposed to move forward in work rules and pay when a 1500-2000 pilot
airline will work for nothing.
2. Safety. I like working 4 legs a day. 6 legs and I am TIRED. I make mistakes. 3 days of 6 legs and I'm REALLY tired. because of your work rules and wages the rest of us will have to compete on the basis of productivity. I don't think this is safe.
So I hope that answered your question. Bottom line I would have remained strong and stead fast. And when it seemed it wasn't working it was time for new negotiaters. If our negotiaters came to us with that TA They would be embarrassed to return to work. But now they might have to in order to compete with you.
SanJuanPlebe said:
I accept your challenge.
First off I think you should have been in touch with the other regional. I know for a fact that your negotiating committee did not accept all the offers for assistance that were offered. Not that they turned down tangible help but more liked they panicked and turned a deaf ear.
2, The thing that really upsets me is that you fell for JO's crap. Just because he shut down CC air didn't mean he could do it to the whole company. Lets face it, JO cut off an arm to try to "save" the body. More like try to scare everyone else. But he wasn't going to shoot himself in the head while only his @ss(freedom) was to survive. Point is Mesa is a publicly traded company. JO is responsible to shareholders and a Board of Directors. Just because he has some airplanes and 87 mother-less SOB's SCABS go to freedom did not constitute and airline. He would not have been able to salvage the entity and transfer it to Freedom. I liked his voice message while all this was going on. He made it sound as if the Freedom guys were "saving the airline". Tell ya what, ask a couple hundred CAL guys how they tried to "save the airline" in 83. I hope the Freedom guys are regarded with the same respect.
What needed to be done was simple. Call his bluff. Thats it. You might not have been able to strike. I understand your mediator was a morron and probably played slap and tickle with JO. But how much would it have taken to work a slowdown? Granted not legal but pretty godd@mn effective. But you didn't even let it get to that. Had your guys gotten to a slowdown JO's next move would have been to take a few hostages. Fire a couple people for stupid things. And if you guys caved before a fight than there is no way you would have had the backbones to make it through that!
Now Im not mad about what my w2 says. Im mad for two reasons.
1. My future and job security is less secure because Mesa threatens the flying that I currently do. Maybe not now, maybe not next year. But when Mesa is twice the size they will.
And on a side note the regional industry is going to be in trouble in 5-7 years. Heres why. In the late 90's early 2000. All the airlines were putting larger planes on routes, getting rid of props for jets and trying to make the airspace more efficient due to airspace congestion. So in a few years when it starts all over there will still be all these regional around only now there will be LESS demand for them. Ie why take an arrival/departure slot with a 50 seat RJ when you can do it with a 120 seat 73? So there will be less flying for us because of less yield. That will cause us to FURTHER COMPETE! How are we supposed to move forward in work rules and pay when a 1500-2000 pilot
airline will work for nothing.
2. Safety. I like working 4 legs a day. 6 legs and I am TIRED. I make mistakes. 3 days of 6 legs and I'm REALLY tired. because of your work rules and wages the rest of us will have to compete on the basis of productivity. I don't think this is safe.
So I hope that answered your question. Bottom line I would have remained strong and stead fast. And when it seemed it wasn't working it was time for new negotiaters. If our negotiaters came to us with that TA They would be embarrassed to return to work. But now they might have to in order to compete with you.
maddog805
Well-known member
- Joined
- Oct 8, 2002
- Posts
- 124
jetdriven said:
WHAT?!?!?!
Is this the norm for the regional carriers?
I'm looking at a SkyWest bid package for June and the LEAST number of days off is 13, The most is 21 and the average is 15.1. How do you guys do it? That is depressing. I feel for you, seriously......oh wait; no I don't.
Last edited:
SanJuanPlebe
Active member
- Joined
- Mar 18, 2003
- Posts
- 30
McPickle
Well,
I can't argue with your insight. I can't argue with your logic. And I don't think you are really that far off.
It's a lot easier to look back and armchair this thing and woulda coulda shoulda it to death.
Bottom line, I don't think we had the unity within the pilot group to do some of the things you suggested. I know in PHX, where we were seeing our flying going away day by day as the Freedom jets passed our planes and they called on the radio "Cisco" as their call sign, the pilots where plenty pissed and would have stuck together.
As for the east coast flying, where they aren't seeing Freedom directly, I'm not so sure our unity would have stood the muster.
So in effect, your ideas require a pissed off, unified and strong pilot group. All of the qualities which we had, just not so sure it would have come together at the right time. It was sort of fragmented and disjointed if you will. Nothing like Comair.
Our MEC put out massive PR campaign, joint picketed with America West, set up strike centers, family awareness events, etc all the educate the pilot group. However, even doing all of that, I question if we could have successfully done some of the things you were looking at.
As for how we got into this whole mess, it's been suggested that because our Negotiating Committee was asking for jet rates on the 700/900 that were unreasonable. Not unreasonable when considered next to Comair and Air Whiskey, but unreasonable because they were higher than the senior most captain on a 757 at America West, who as you know with our code-share arrangement, is paying our bills. Do we get pissed off at America West?
In short, it just wasn't gonna fly.
We got enhancements. Not much, but enhancements. I just get pissed off when we get blamed for the industry's problems. Sure, we didn't keep raising the standards that were set by Comair and Air Wisconsin, but given the negotiating environment, and the fact concessions are now a fact of life, I don't think we could have no matter what we tried. Those gravy contracts were negotiated in better times. And our management's philosophy is for leaner returns (6-9% profit margins) in exchange for duration. And that's what they did the pilots too.
It doesn't matter now if we did the right or wrong thing. It's done. Let's just work together to try to keep what we have, and improve it along the way, whether we do it property by property or through ALPA, or another venue.
We're all pilots. We all need to stick together. We all need to help each other, even if you're pissed off about our contract. I just hate to see folks threatening jumpseats, etc. No one wins but the company at that point. They've pit us against each other and made the competition in the cockpit, rather than in the open market.
Thanks for a reasonable debate, but since I agree with much of what you are saying, I think I'll leave it at that.
The Plebe
Well,
I can't argue with your insight. I can't argue with your logic. And I don't think you are really that far off.
It's a lot easier to look back and armchair this thing and woulda coulda shoulda it to death.
Bottom line, I don't think we had the unity within the pilot group to do some of the things you suggested. I know in PHX, where we were seeing our flying going away day by day as the Freedom jets passed our planes and they called on the radio "Cisco" as their call sign, the pilots where plenty pissed and would have stuck together.
As for the east coast flying, where they aren't seeing Freedom directly, I'm not so sure our unity would have stood the muster.
So in effect, your ideas require a pissed off, unified and strong pilot group. All of the qualities which we had, just not so sure it would have come together at the right time. It was sort of fragmented and disjointed if you will. Nothing like Comair.
Our MEC put out massive PR campaign, joint picketed with America West, set up strike centers, family awareness events, etc all the educate the pilot group. However, even doing all of that, I question if we could have successfully done some of the things you were looking at.
As for how we got into this whole mess, it's been suggested that because our Negotiating Committee was asking for jet rates on the 700/900 that were unreasonable. Not unreasonable when considered next to Comair and Air Whiskey, but unreasonable because they were higher than the senior most captain on a 757 at America West, who as you know with our code-share arrangement, is paying our bills. Do we get pissed off at America West?
In short, it just wasn't gonna fly.
We got enhancements. Not much, but enhancements. I just get pissed off when we get blamed for the industry's problems. Sure, we didn't keep raising the standards that were set by Comair and Air Wisconsin, but given the negotiating environment, and the fact concessions are now a fact of life, I don't think we could have no matter what we tried. Those gravy contracts were negotiated in better times. And our management's philosophy is for leaner returns (6-9% profit margins) in exchange for duration. And that's what they did the pilots too.
It doesn't matter now if we did the right or wrong thing. It's done. Let's just work together to try to keep what we have, and improve it along the way, whether we do it property by property or through ALPA, or another venue.
We're all pilots. We all need to stick together. We all need to help each other, even if you're pissed off about our contract. I just hate to see folks threatening jumpseats, etc. No one wins but the company at that point. They've pit us against each other and made the competition in the cockpit, rather than in the open market.
Thanks for a reasonable debate, but since I agree with much of what you are saying, I think I'll leave it at that.
The Plebe
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