JetBlue Vote....

[UpNDownGuy]

ALPA arrives at Jetblue. In 2 years an industry leading concessionary contract is agreed to that is good for 5 years. Meanwhile, as the airline industry seeks qualified pilots to replace age 65 retirees and the pipeline of 1500 hour new-hires dries up-- pay and benefits at all other airlines will increase (basic supply/demand). But we here at JBLU will be stuck in our concessionary contract for up to 12 years (2 years for first contract + 5 year contract + 5 years Airtran-like negotiation) while the rest of the pilots in the industry prosper... and when we get our new contract to make up for the shortfalls of our first contract, I'll be near retirement...

We go to the negotiating table with everything we have now. The process is a give/take one. Better retirement? Better medical? Sure, what are you willing to give up for it? That is why most First Contracts are concessionary. BTW, it better at least have a 2-3% increase in pay to cover our dues or right out of the gates-- you guessed it, concessionary...

Our management have already come out-a-blazing with how they love a third-party process. You absolutely think the company will give you everything you want?

Reality check here-- YOU BETTER START LOOKING CAREFULLY AT WHAT YOU'RE WILLING TO GIVE UP IN ORDER TO GET WHAT YOU WANT...

Totally clueless. That is not how a contract is negotiated, no matter how many times management repeats it. When you negotiate a first contract, you sit down and compare your pay/benefits/work rules with the rest of the industry. We're not buying a used car here, which is the extent of negotiating experience most pilots have to their credit. If management wants to pay us significantly less, or work us more, they better have a good reason.

If you honestly believe "most First Contracts are concessionary", why don't you give us some of the many, many examples of that in history? Then, I'll give you examples of first contracts that were total improvements over previous conditions. Or did you imagine everyone would take your ridiculous "facts" at face value?

 

[Flyby1206]

When you negotiate a first contract, you sit down and compare your pay/benefits/work rules with the rest of the industry. We're not buying a used car here, which is the extent of negotiating experience most pilots have to their credit. If management wants to pay us significantly less, or work us more, they better have a good reason.

So who would be in the category with Jetblue when figuring their closest peers? Frontier, Spirit, VX, Sun Country, SWA/Airtran, Allegiant? Out of that group SWA has the best contract, but I would think B6 runs in 2nd place, considerably above the Industry Average for the LCC group.

 

[Dizel8]

So who would be in the category with Jetblue when figuring their closest peers? Frontier, Spirit, VX, Sun Country, SWA/Airtran, Allegiant? Out of that group SWA has the best contract, but I would think B6 runs in 2nd place, considerably above the Industry Average for the LCC group.

We already have determined who we are comparing jetblue with, sure there were some issues with it, but management agreed to our peer set, just haven't done anything to match anything other than pay.

As for SWA, their pay is highest at the moment, but productivity wise, there is no reason jetblue couldn't pay the same!

 

[pilotyip]

We already have determined who we are comparing jetblue with,

really must have missed that; who are you comparing to?

 

[B6Busdriver]

what about the post that JB 320 drivers are paid 30% more than 320 pilots at USAir? How does one determine industry average? Having been there done that, I am always concerned about the unintended consequences.

So what? Our payrates are industry average as per airlinepilotcenral.com

 

[OurMoney1]

BB strikes me as someone who fears improving their life and embraces mediocrity. Whats the problem? too many kids at home and the wife doesnt work so you fear rockin the vote because your situation by your design is check to check.

17 years flying, seen alot of union arguments, but this here one takes the cake as the dumbest yet seen.

Brining ALPA onboard is not a game of chance. It is an opporunity to join your peers to make the whole a whole hell of a lot better. You sound awfully selfish. Perhaps you would do well to go do some service work down at your local shelter.

Rise up my peers and embrace the proffesional services that ALPA on day 1 will offer you and your family.

 

[B6Busdriver]

BB strikes me as someone who fears improving their life and embraces mediocrity. Whats the problem? too many kids at home and the wife doesnt work so you fear rockin the vote because your situation by your design is check to check.

17 years flying, seen alot of union arguments, but this here one takes the cake as the dumbest yet seen.

Brining ALPA onboard is not a game of chance. It is an opporunity to join your peers to make the whole a whole hell of a lot better. You sound awfully selfish. Perhaps you would do well to go do some service work down at your local shelter.

Rise up my peers and embrace the proffesional services that ALPA on day 1 will offer you and your family.

+1

Well said. So many of these guys are scared they won't be able to credit 130 hours a month yet no one has mentioned ay caps. BB is probably on some comittee or some other special deal, he only cares about himself.

 

[pilotyip]

So what? Our payrates are industry average as per airlinepilotcenral.com

so you are telling me you already at industry average?

 

[Blue Dude]

so you are telling me you already at industry average?

On paper, we are paid roughly average. But there's a whole lot more to the story than the pay scale, among them - how those rates are earned, under what conditions we work, what benefits we earn, and how enforceable the whole shootin' match is. For much of this, several regional airlines kick our butt. But I'm not going to try to explain the entire situation to you because your situation has very little in common with ours.

 

[pilotyip]

On paper, we are paid roughly average. But there's a whole lot more to the story than the pay scale, among them - how those rates are earned, under what conditions we work, what benefits we earn, and how enforceable the whole shootin' match is. For much of this, several regional airlines kick our butt. But I'm not going to try to explain the entire situation to you because your situation has very little in common with ours.

Wish you the best of luck, in ten years we can all look back and decide if this worked out OK. Only watching.

 

[BLUE BAYOU]

ALPA worked out so well for TWA, USAir, Midwest, Lynx to name a few... They stood by during the past ten years of lost pensions, benefits, pay and jobs too in this industry. You want examples-- crap, just open your eyes and look at what has happened to those ALPA carriers. A contract ain't worth anything in bankruptcy-- look at UAL, you can work decades to build up the best contract to see it "poof" disappear!!! OK, let's have a seat at the table and start over again at Jetblue... We WANT industry average!!!!! Give us what American has with their trip protections (what they don't get pay protected for a modified or cnx trip?). How about UAL's 50% DH pay... How about industry average 190 pay (what, it's lower?)... I just say, be careful what you consider is industry average...

You can't deny that we may be "locked-in" our first contract for up to 12 years (2 years negotiation + 5 year contract, + up to 5 years of Airtran-like negotiation) The talks under the PVC now are ongoing with changes made for mostly the better almost on a yearly basis (light speed compared to a contractual negotiation)... NO, it's not perfect-- not even close!!!! But no matter how you paint it, Jetblue has provided for my family and me, better than most Americans these past 10 years... IMO I really don't think our blue-collar job is all as hard as you guys paint it to be-LOL, but then again according all of you in the know, I'm clueless anyway!!!

 

[Flyby1206]

I dont think that having ALPA is what makes an industry leading contract, or an industry leading company. When I see Mesa come up with an industry leading contract I will change my tune, but until then I see ALPA as an organization going after dues money of a successful company without paying any attention to the real crap-hole companies they already represent.

http://www.alpa.org/Home/WhoWeAre/PilotGroups/tabid/2239/Default.aspx

Does FedEx have a sweet contract because of ALPA? Does Mesa have a crappy one because of ALPA?

If you take credit for one, you must take blame for the other...

 

[Ski-N-Fly]

ALPA worked out so well for TWA, USAir, Midwest, Lynx to name a few... They stood by during the past ten years of lost pensions, benefits, pay and jobs too in this industry. You want examples-- crap, just open your eyes and look at what has happened to those ALPA carriers. A contract ain't worth anything in bankruptcy-- look at UAL, you can work decades to build up the best contract to see it "poof" disappear!!! OK, let's have a seat at the table and start over again at Jetblue... We WANT industry average!!!!! Give us what American has with their trip protections (what they don't get pay protected for a modified or cnx trip?). How about UAL's 50% DH pay... How about industry average 190 pay (what, it's lower?)... I just say, be careful what you consider is industry average...

Not trying to stir the pot here, but I suggest you actually speak to the former USAir, TWA, and Mesa pilots who are on the OC. They have seen first hand what happens in this industry, and are supporting the union drive 100%.

Pro JetBlue
Pro Union

Vote ALPA!

 

[B6Busdriver]

so you are telling me you already at industry average?

I'm done debating you on this forum. Inudustry average pay at JetBlue.......everything else below industry average. Got it?

 

[B6Busdriver]

ALPA worked out so well for TWA, USAir, Midwest, Lynx to name a few... They stood by during the past ten years of lost pensions, benefits, pay and jobs too in this industry. You want examples-- crap, just open your eyes and look at what has happened to those ALPA carriers. A contract ain't worth anything in bankruptcy-- look at UAL, you can work decades to build up the best contract to see it "poof" disappear!!! OK, let's have a seat at the table and start over again at Jetblue... We WANT industry average!!!!! Give us what American has with their trip protections (what they don't get pay protected for a modified or cnx trip?). How about UAL's 50% DH pay... How about industry average 190 pay (what, it's lower?)... I just say, be careful what you consider is industry average...

You can't deny that we may be "locked-in" our first contract for up to 12 years (2 years negotiation + 5 year contract, + up to 5 years of Airtran-like negotiation) The talks under the PVC now are ongoing with changes made for mostly the better almost on a yearly basis (light speed compared to a contractual negotiation)... NO, it's not perfect-- not even close!!!! But no matter how you paint it, Jetblue has provided for my family and me, better than most Americans these past 10 years... IMO I really don't think our blue-collar job is all as hard as you guys paint it to be-LOL, but then again according all of you in the know, I'm clueless anyway!!!

What do all the airlines have in common in the first sentence??? Could it be bankruptcy? The last ten years have been filled with unrprecedented terrorist attacks, economic disaster, and skyrocketing oil prices. Is ALPA responsible for that too? Sure when an airline goes into bankruptcy hard times are ahead. What would life be like at those carriers with the so-called direct relationship? Probably you would see $80 an hour 737 pilots compliments of Mesa. It takes prosperity and representation to have a successful airline careeer.

Whenever you compare us to other carriers you conveniently take the worst of the worst benefits. Why is that? It probably relates to your last sentence. If this job isn't fulfilling enough then you ought to get out of the industry. Why waste your time?

 

[Dizel8]

really must have missed that; who are you comparing to?

Really, must have missed why I should have to explain it to you!

Sorry Yip, not your fight, not your dog!

 

[UpNDownGuy]

ALPA worked out so well for TWA, USAir, Midwest, Lynx to name a few... They stood by during the past ten years of lost pensions, benefits, pay and jobs too in this industry. You want examples-- crap, just open your eyes and look at what has happened to those ALPA carriers. A contract ain't worth anything in bankruptcy-- look at UAL, you can work decades to build up the best contract to see it "poof" disappear!!! OK, let's have a seat at the table and start over again at Jetblue... We WANT industry average!!!!! Give us what American has with their trip protections (what they don't get pay protected for a modified or cnx trip?). How about UAL's 50% DH pay... How about industry average 190 pay (what, it's lower?)... I just say, be careful what you consider is industry average...

You can't deny that we may be "locked-in" our first contract for up to 12 years (2 years negotiation + 5 year contract, + up to 5 years of Airtran-like negotiation) The talks under the PVC now are ongoing with changes made for mostly the better almost on a yearly basis (light speed compared to a contractual negotiation)... NO, it's not perfect-- not even close!!!! But no matter how you paint it, Jetblue has provided for my family and me, better than most Americans these past 10 years... IMO I really don't think our blue-collar job is all as hard as you guys paint it to be-LOL, but then again according all of you in the know, I'm clueless anyway!!!

This was NOT your point. You claimed that "most first contracts are concessionary". It simply isn't true. I didn't ask you to provide examples of failing business models. Either provide examples of all these concessionary first contracts, or edit your previous posts to reflect the truth. Trying to change the subject won't help anyone.

 

[pilotyip]

Really, must have missed why I should have to explain it to you!

Sorry Yip, not your fight, not your dog!

as I said I could care less what you guys do. This is a public forum expect public comment.

 

[Dizel8]

as I said I could care less what you guys do.

Thanks!