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JetBlue verses FedEx?
- Thread starter AlbieF15
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ExAF
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Choices
I've always been a believer in the best airline is the one that hires you. Pick one and never look back. Only you can make the right choice for you. Where you want to live would have to come into the equation. Do you want to live at base or commute? Do you want to fly one type of A/C for your entire career? Do you ever want to fly international? Is money the great equalizer? Job security (or insecurity) comes to mind. Boxes or people? I think if I had the choice, I'd have to go with FedEx. Either way you are going to be a winner. You won't know if you made the right choice until you hit 60 and see if you have a retirement check to cash each month. Congratulations whichever one you decided on!
I've always been a believer in the best airline is the one that hires you. Pick one and never look back. Only you can make the right choice for you. Where you want to live would have to come into the equation. Do you want to live at base or commute? Do you want to fly one type of A/C for your entire career? Do you ever want to fly international? Is money the great equalizer? Job security (or insecurity) comes to mind. Boxes or people? I think if I had the choice, I'd have to go with FedEx. Either way you are going to be a winner. You won't know if you made the right choice until you hit 60 and see if you have a retirement check to cash each month. Congratulations whichever one you decided on!
Depends on what kind of flying you want to do and if you're willing to take the risk on a startup. I would say that if any startup airline is going to make it, it'll be JetBlue. They seem to be doing everything "right." But, you've got to like flying a Bus for the rest of your life.
FEDEX will almost certainly mean more money in the long run, but you've got to like flying at night or flying international long haul.
They also have more aircraft diversity and pay.
One other thing. FEDEX pilots have a labor contract. JetBlue doesn't, as far as I know. Will they in the future. Almost certainly, but that fight for the first contract is always bloody.
I've worked for airlines that don't have a union and one that does. I'll take the union every time.
Sounds like you have a couple of good choices. Pick your poison, and good luck.
FEDEX will almost certainly mean more money in the long run, but you've got to like flying at night or flying international long haul.
They also have more aircraft diversity and pay.
One other thing. FEDEX pilots have a labor contract. JetBlue doesn't, as far as I know. Will they in the future. Almost certainly, but that fight for the first contract is always bloody.
I've worked for airlines that don't have a union and one that does. I'll take the union every time.
Sounds like you have a couple of good choices. Pick your poison, and good luck.
Albie's Choice Revealed!
For those of you who do not know what Albie decided, here's a hint:
He's practicing his lines already...
"You want to make that a combo meal?"
Yuk yuk...just digging him back a little for that big "I can kick your bu++ in BFM" email argument we had...
Seriously, there are no bad choices to be made in your case, Albie. You'll do great!
Flipper
For those of you who do not know what Albie decided, here's a hint:
He's practicing his lines already...
"You want to make that a combo meal?"
Yuk yuk...just digging him back a little for that big "I can kick your bu++ in BFM" email argument we had...
Seriously, there are no bad choices to be made in your case, Albie. You'll do great!
Flipper
side stick-n
Well-known member
- Joined
- Nov 29, 2001
- Posts
- 177
Albie,
I think I somehow stumbled upon your decision. If it's true then I can say I'm disappointed but completely understand your position. I've read most of your post from your first one inquiring gouge about the interview and from what I've read, I would have enjoyed working with you for a very long time. You are the type that we look for in a flight crew member. Good luck to you in the future and enjoy your new job. Congratulations! BTW, I know there are no guarentees but I think I hit the jackpot with my position and feel very fortunate to belong to such an awesome group.
Stick'n
I think I somehow stumbled upon your decision. If it's true then I can say I'm disappointed but completely understand your position. I've read most of your post from your first one inquiring gouge about the interview and from what I've read, I would have enjoyed working with you for a very long time. You are the type that we look for in a flight crew member. Good luck to you in the future and enjoy your new job. Congratulations! BTW, I know there are no guarentees but I think I hit the jackpot with my position and feel very fortunate to belong to such an awesome group.
Stick'n
AlbieF15
F15 Ret/FDX/InterviewPrep
- Joined
- Nov 25, 2001
- Posts
- 1,764
Side stick'n,
I'd say you have hit a jackpot. If I wasn't committed to staying in one location, it would have made a harder choice even tougher.
However...the pain of the commute would offset many of the benefits. FDX offers tremendous income potential down the road, and I can keep my current life in the ANG and this location relatively intact. With 2 kids in schools, church, gymanstics, etc. plus the desire to continue to serve, it just seemed right to stay in this location. If I'm going to live here, then FDX is the obvious choice.
The praise for JetBlue in no way softens the praise for where I am going--a first class operation with a diverse fleet of aircraft that go world wide. As profile said, day flying isn't out of the question, but with my other job I think a late pm commute to work and an early am commute home actually work best. While I won't make Capt in year 2 like JB, I "might" make it in year 5 or 6 with FDX if retirements and expansion continue on the present rate. In either case, I have met some great people at both operations. My FDX contacts aren't board regulars...you wouldn't know them...but they have been super. The JB folks...wow...they have done everything they could to let me know what it takes to make it work at JetBlue. I likewise would have LOVED working with everyone I"ve met associated with the organization.
For you FDX guys...I know we don't have travel passes like some of the majors, but we do get ID-90s, 75s, etc. Do I get an ID-FA card....one that lets me mess around on layovers with flight attendents from other majors? Just kidding...gotta see if my wife ever logs on and reads these posts. (All you FAs don't need to send me hate mail....I'm KIDDING)
As for meals....Flipper...I was going to get catered meals either place. The difference between us is you get to eat your fill of blue potato chips and snack mix between, while I will continue my military inspired caffine addicition drinking about a pot of coffee every night between 10pm and 6 am.
I know nobody is going to feel sorry for me, but it was tough choice. Like I said in the verdict thread...if I can help anyone with gouge on either company please send me a pm.
Fly safe,
Albie
I'd say you have hit a jackpot. If I wasn't committed to staying in one location, it would have made a harder choice even tougher.
However...the pain of the commute would offset many of the benefits. FDX offers tremendous income potential down the road, and I can keep my current life in the ANG and this location relatively intact. With 2 kids in schools, church, gymanstics, etc. plus the desire to continue to serve, it just seemed right to stay in this location. If I'm going to live here, then FDX is the obvious choice.
The praise for JetBlue in no way softens the praise for where I am going--a first class operation with a diverse fleet of aircraft that go world wide. As profile said, day flying isn't out of the question, but with my other job I think a late pm commute to work and an early am commute home actually work best. While I won't make Capt in year 2 like JB, I "might" make it in year 5 or 6 with FDX if retirements and expansion continue on the present rate. In either case, I have met some great people at both operations. My FDX contacts aren't board regulars...you wouldn't know them...but they have been super. The JB folks...wow...they have done everything they could to let me know what it takes to make it work at JetBlue. I likewise would have LOVED working with everyone I"ve met associated with the organization.
For you FDX guys...I know we don't have travel passes like some of the majors, but we do get ID-90s, 75s, etc. Do I get an ID-FA card....one that lets me mess around on layovers with flight attendents from other majors? Just kidding...gotta see if my wife ever logs on and reads these posts. (All you FAs don't need to send me hate mail....I'm KIDDING)
As for meals....Flipper...I was going to get catered meals either place. The difference between us is you get to eat your fill of blue potato chips and snack mix between, while I will continue my military inspired caffine addicition drinking about a pot of coffee every night between 10pm and 6 am.
I know nobody is going to feel sorry for me, but it was tough choice. Like I said in the verdict thread...if I can help anyone with gouge on either company please send me a pm.
Fly safe,
Albie
Purple Haze
Out there and lovin' it
- Joined
- Nov 25, 2001
- Posts
- 175
KTHornet
Member
- Joined
- Jan 2, 2002
- Posts
- 20
Albie -
Make sure you look VERY closely at pay scales and benefits (retirement, medical, etc.). Also look at monthly flying hour guarantees and days off per month and sample schedule bids. Retirement is VERY VERY IMPORTANT. Don't get suckered into being convinced making captain earlier is necessarily better. I know in my company, an F/O can make a heck of a lot more than a Captain at a non-union airline, and have an A & B retirement fund AND a 401k as opposed to a JUST a 401k.
I could care less about being captain or not. Keep the ego out of it. I'm more interested in the paycheck, retirement, and schedule.
As far as flying pax or freight -- I liked freight a lot better, but pax flying pays alot more and has more rational schedules.
Make sure you look VERY closely at pay scales and benefits (retirement, medical, etc.). Also look at monthly flying hour guarantees and days off per month and sample schedule bids. Retirement is VERY VERY IMPORTANT. Don't get suckered into being convinced making captain earlier is necessarily better. I know in my company, an F/O can make a heck of a lot more than a Captain at a non-union airline, and have an A & B retirement fund AND a 401k as opposed to a JUST a 401k.
I could care less about being captain or not. Keep the ego out of it. I'm more interested in the paycheck, retirement, and schedule.
As far as flying pax or freight -- I liked freight a lot better, but pax flying pays alot more and has more rational schedules.
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DON'T DO WHAT I DID!!!
I wasted 12 years at Sun Country! Well, not really wasted, but look where I am right now! Make no mistake, JetBlue is no different than Sun Country. Twelve years down the line, you don't know who or what JetBlue will be. Old senior Captains used to say "What the **** are you still doing here?" Now, I see they were right. I was an international widebody captain on DC-10s at 32 years old, and I have also been typed in the B-737NG with full glass. But I'm sitting at home with mouths to feed, and hind sight being 20/20, going to the majors years ago would've been so much better.
I wasted 12 years at Sun Country! Well, not really wasted, but look where I am right now! Make no mistake, JetBlue is no different than Sun Country. Twelve years down the line, you don't know who or what JetBlue will be. Old senior Captains used to say "What the **** are you still doing here?" Now, I see they were right. I was an international widebody captain on DC-10s at 32 years old, and I have also been typed in the B-737NG with full glass. But I'm sitting at home with mouths to feed, and hind sight being 20/20, going to the majors years ago would've been so much better.
side stick-n
Well-known member
- Joined
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- Posts
- 177
Hi Cap'nHal,
I'm very sorry things didn't work out for you at Sun Country and I don't wish to and won't get into an aurgument on this forum. However, I do wish to correct one statement in your post. Make not mistake, JetBlue IS very different than Sun Country. I won't go into all the differences now but feel free to search the internet or visit our web site for information on just how different we are from every other carrier. One of the attitudes that has brought us the success we have obtained thus far is the vision on who and and what we will be 12 years from now. True, there are no guarentees in this business but with the determination of our employees and our management I believe, along with many financial analysist, that we will not become a statistic.
I'm very sorry things didn't work out for you at Sun Country and I don't wish to and won't get into an aurgument on this forum. However, I do wish to correct one statement in your post. Make not mistake, JetBlue IS very different than Sun Country. I won't go into all the differences now but feel free to search the internet or visit our web site for information on just how different we are from every other carrier. One of the attitudes that has brought us the success we have obtained thus far is the vision on who and and what we will be 12 years from now. True, there are no guarentees in this business but with the determination of our employees and our management I believe, along with many financial analysist, that we will not become a statistic.
I agree side stick-n. I think JB has a good plan, and as importantly, enough money to make it "right." Rational fleet plan. Competing where it makes sense and $. Not a startup with a junk hodgepodge of equipment and a shoestring.
I would highly recommend that your pilot group start the initial steps of organizing. Everythings nice and rosy now. Everybody's happy to be flying heavy equipment. But pretty soon you're gonna want your share of the pie -- pay, and retirement somewhat comparable to a major.
BTW, what is 3yr F/O pay and 4yr Captain pay? What retirement scheme is there?
I would highly recommend that your pilot group start the initial steps of organizing. Everythings nice and rosy now. Everybody's happy to be flying heavy equipment. But pretty soon you're gonna want your share of the pie -- pay, and retirement somewhat comparable to a major.
BTW, what is 3yr F/O pay and 4yr Captain pay? What retirement scheme is there?
side stick-n
Well-known member
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$$$ you want to know? Based on 85 hrs/month, 3rd yr. FO-68K+perdiem. 4 yr Captain-131K+perdiem. I don't consider this "low" wages as some have indicated. True, it's less than maybe UAL or the other major A320 operaters but it's very acceptable in my book. And yes, we fly for our pay. That 85 hours is going to be almost 85 hours of hard time. As of now, our retirement is in the form of a company matched 401K and stock options. Now some may say that is no retirement plan but if you look at the past history of successful airlines, IE SWA, the stock options alone "could" be worth more than every other retirement plan in existance. This is just one more reason for the commitment of our pilots as well as our other crew members.
As for organization, thank you for your concern but I don't see that happening for a very, very long time if ever. You see, we have a very close relationship with the leaders of our company. I, nor any other pilots I know of want a wall built to end the cooperation we have. We get a share of the pie in the form of profit sharing. And it may be a very generous slice from our profits last year. Also, I think it may be a mis-conception that our pilots have a background of flying "small" airplanes. I don't know the exact numbers but many of our pilots were previous "heavy" equipment pilots, so the type aircraft really has no bearing. Sure, everyone wants a piece of the pie but in this business, greed is like cutting your own throat. I would rather see jetBlue become a "Major" airline, retire with my stock options and relish the rewards of helping to build an awesome company.
Take care.
As for organization, thank you for your concern but I don't see that happening for a very, very long time if ever. You see, we have a very close relationship with the leaders of our company. I, nor any other pilots I know of want a wall built to end the cooperation we have. We get a share of the pie in the form of profit sharing. And it may be a very generous slice from our profits last year. Also, I think it may be a mis-conception that our pilots have a background of flying "small" airplanes. I don't know the exact numbers but many of our pilots were previous "heavy" equipment pilots, so the type aircraft really has no bearing. Sure, everyone wants a piece of the pie but in this business, greed is like cutting your own throat. I would rather see jetBlue become a "Major" airline, retire with my stock options and relish the rewards of helping to build an awesome company.
Take care.
SpeedRacer
Well-known member
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- Nov 25, 2001
- Posts
- 60
"Close relationship withg management!??
"side stick n"
LOTS of Federal Express guys believed good ol' Fred Smith when he said he would match Delta's pay and take care of them. How many years did the pilots go without a payraise in the 80's? About 8 years I believe (any FedEx guys please correct me if I'm wrong - I'll check the FPA's history article).
Also, do you really speak for ALL of the pilot's there?? Doubtful, to do that you would have to have the pilot group "organized" to speak for all of them, which you of course are opposed to.
As a 727 S/O at FedEx, I've never flown 85 hard hours a month (average @30 hrs.)! Wow, that's got to be hard - day or night!! Don't let the job kill you.....I gotta go, going fishing with my kids tomorrow!
"side stick n"
LOTS of Federal Express guys believed good ol' Fred Smith when he said he would match Delta's pay and take care of them. How many years did the pilots go without a payraise in the 80's? About 8 years I believe (any FedEx guys please correct me if I'm wrong - I'll check the FPA's history article).
Also, do you really speak for ALL of the pilot's there?? Doubtful, to do that you would have to have the pilot group "organized" to speak for all of them, which you of course are opposed to.
As a 727 S/O at FedEx, I've never flown 85 hard hours a month (average @30 hrs.)! Wow, that's got to be hard - day or night!! Don't let the job kill you.....I gotta go, going fishing with my kids tomorrow!
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AlbieF15
F15 Ret/FDX/InterviewPrep
- Joined
- Nov 25, 2001
- Posts
- 1,764
While I don't think the ratio will favor military guys at JetBlue like at Delta or FedEx, there are a lot of military guys (some retired) joining JetBlue very soon. Eagleflip will have the 02-01 class breakdown if anyone is interested.
Like I mentioned last summer...Ann Rhodes wanted more military guys. Seems like a lot of Navy types joining them soon...another FedEx poolie like me had the choice of 2 carriers. Since Navy didn't suffer as much stop loss stuff it makes sense that there will be a Navy influx into JB for a couple months.
Albie
Like I mentioned last summer...Ann Rhodes wanted more military guys. Seems like a lot of Navy types joining them soon...another FedEx poolie like me had the choice of 2 carriers. Since Navy didn't suffer as much stop loss stuff it makes sense that there will be a Navy influx into JB for a couple months.
Albie
RueterF16
Active member
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- Nov 29, 2001
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- 40
I sounds like you've thought this out fairly well, but here's my 2 cents worth from a guy who worked for a non-union airline for 18 months.
JB pay sounds very good for a start up, but still probably 20-30% below current industry standard (we'll see if there will be any givebacks on the new UAL and DAL contracts?). Be careful about hitching your retirement very heavily into a single airline stock (or any single stock for that matter). A lot of people at Enron did that. Also, without a successorship rights in a union contract, if JB is sold, or even if JB buys another airline, you have no legal say on how the seniority list is integrated.
I know many 747 guys at Atlas Air and Polar that were salivating to get on with JB when they first started up, more to get away from Atlas and Polar than anything else, but were very enticed by the new equipment and futuristic thinking of the company.
When Atlas started up in 93, there was no union, pay was pretty good (for a startup), upgrades quick, profit sharing, a matched 401k, and everybody was happy (especially a lot of ex Eastern/Pan Am drivers) to have a job. The company was VERY profitable (generally a 12% after tax profit margin). Schedules were long and tough but the crew force wanted to make it work. There they are 9 years later, pay scales haven't changed, still a 401k, had to sue the company to get their promised profit sharing, reduced benefits, worse schedules (for instance, everybody in MIA is now on 19 days a month reserve), must jumpseat to work vice having the company buy you a ticket, etc, etc. Finally, after the company was the third most profitable airline in the world and no longer considered a startup, the company still refused to raise any payrates AT ALL or reduce the heavy schedules. Consequently, pay "real" pay has actually gone down and, of course, there has been no movement toward industry standard. Schedules are still lousy for everybody, no change in retirement, etc etc. After 3 years of negotiation, their union still does not have their first contract.
Maybe JB can break the typical airline mould of labor relations -- but it hasn't been done yet, at least in the long run -- not even Southwest. Enjoy the ride with JB, but keep you SA up, especially a few years from now.
Good luck.
JB pay sounds very good for a start up, but still probably 20-30% below current industry standard (we'll see if there will be any givebacks on the new UAL and DAL contracts?). Be careful about hitching your retirement very heavily into a single airline stock (or any single stock for that matter). A lot of people at Enron did that. Also, without a successorship rights in a union contract, if JB is sold, or even if JB buys another airline, you have no legal say on how the seniority list is integrated.
I know many 747 guys at Atlas Air and Polar that were salivating to get on with JB when they first started up, more to get away from Atlas and Polar than anything else, but were very enticed by the new equipment and futuristic thinking of the company.
When Atlas started up in 93, there was no union, pay was pretty good (for a startup), upgrades quick, profit sharing, a matched 401k, and everybody was happy (especially a lot of ex Eastern/Pan Am drivers) to have a job. The company was VERY profitable (generally a 12% after tax profit margin). Schedules were long and tough but the crew force wanted to make it work. There they are 9 years later, pay scales haven't changed, still a 401k, had to sue the company to get their promised profit sharing, reduced benefits, worse schedules (for instance, everybody in MIA is now on 19 days a month reserve), must jumpseat to work vice having the company buy you a ticket, etc, etc. Finally, after the company was the third most profitable airline in the world and no longer considered a startup, the company still refused to raise any payrates AT ALL or reduce the heavy schedules. Consequently, pay "real" pay has actually gone down and, of course, there has been no movement toward industry standard. Schedules are still lousy for everybody, no change in retirement, etc etc. After 3 years of negotiation, their union still does not have their first contract.
Maybe JB can break the typical airline mould of labor relations -- but it hasn't been done yet, at least in the long run -- not even Southwest. Enjoy the ride with JB, but keep you SA up, especially a few years from now.
Good luck.
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