JetBlue verses FedEx?

[KTHornet]

Good Luck

Albie,

Good luck at FDX! As for me, I'll be going Blue. I'm also joining a Reserve Marine F/A-18 squadron in Atlanta after training is complete in Miami. We'll have to set up a disimilar 1V1. Past experience has favored the Hornet as long as we can live to the merge!

KTHornet

 

[Draginass]

Albie -
Make sure you look VERY closely at pay scales and benefits (retirement, medical, etc.). Also look at monthly flying hour guarantees and days off per month and sample schedule bids. Retirement is VERY VERY IMPORTANT. Don't get suckered into being convinced making captain earlier is necessarily better. I know in my company, an F/O can make a heck of a lot more than a Captain at a non-union airline, and have an A & B retirement fund AND a 401k as opposed to a JUST a 401k.

I could care less about being captain or not. Keep the ego out of it. I'm more interested in the paycheck, retirement, and schedule.

As far as flying pax or freight -- I liked freight a lot better, but pax flying pays alot more and has more rational schedules.

 

[Cap'nHal]

DON'T DO WHAT I DID!!!

I wasted 12 years at Sun Country! Well, not really wasted, but look where I am right now! Make no mistake, JetBlue is no different than Sun Country. Twelve years down the line, you don't know who or what JetBlue will be. Old senior Captains used to say "What the **** are you still doing here?" Now, I see they were right. I was an international widebody captain on DC-10s at 32 years old, and I have also been typed in the B-737NG with full glass. But I'm sitting at home with mouths to feed, and hind sight being 20/20, going to the majors years ago would've been so much better.

 

[side stick-n]

Hi Cap'nHal,

I'm very sorry things didn't work out for you at Sun Country and I don't wish to and won't get into an aurgument on this forum. However, I do wish to correct one statement in your post. Make not mistake, JetBlue IS very different than Sun Country. I won't go into all the differences now but feel free to search the internet or visit our web site for information on just how different we are from every other carrier. One of the attitudes that has brought us the success we have obtained thus far is the vision on who and and what we will be 12 years from now. True, there are no guarentees in this business but with the determination of our employees and our management I believe, along with many financial analysist, that we will not become a statistic.

 

[Draginass]

I agree side stick-n. I think JB has a good plan, and as importantly, enough money to make it "right." Rational fleet plan. Competing where it makes sense and $. Not a startup with a junk hodgepodge of equipment and a shoestring.

I would highly recommend that your pilot group start the initial steps of organizing. Everythings nice and rosy now. Everybody's happy to be flying heavy equipment. But pretty soon you're gonna want your share of the pie -- pay, and retirement somewhat comparable to a major.

BTW, what is 3yr F/O pay and 4yr Captain pay? What retirement scheme is there?

 

[side stick-n]

$$$ you want to know? Based on 85 hrs/month, 3rd yr. FO-68K+perdiem. 4 yr Captain-131K+perdiem. I don't consider this "low" wages as some have indicated. True, it's less than maybe UAL or the other major A320 operaters but it's very acceptable in my book. And yes, we fly for our pay. That 85 hours is going to be almost 85 hours of hard time. As of now, our retirement is in the form of a company matched 401K and stock options. Now some may say that is no retirement plan but if you look at the past history of successful airlines, IE SWA, the stock options alone "could" be worth more than every other retirement plan in existance. This is just one more reason for the commitment of our pilots as well as our other crew members.

As for organization, thank you for your concern but I don't see that happening for a very, very long time if ever. You see, we have a very close relationship with the leaders of our company. I, nor any other pilots I know of want a wall built to end the cooperation we have. We get a share of the pie in the form of profit sharing. And it may be a very generous slice from our profits last year. Also, I think it may be a mis-conception that our pilots have a background of flying "small" airplanes. I don't know the exact numbers but many of our pilots were previous "heavy" equipment pilots, so the type aircraft really has no bearing. Sure, everyone wants a piece of the pie but in this business, greed is like cutting your own throat. I would rather see jetBlue become a "Major" airline, retire with my stock options and relish the rewards of helping to build an awesome company.

Take care.

 

[SpeedRacer]

"Close relationship withg management!??

As for organization, thank you for your concern but I don't see that happening for a very, very long time if ever. You see, we have a very close relationship with the leaders of our company. I, nor any other pilots I know of want a wall built to end the cooperation we have

"side stick n"

LOTS of Federal Express guys believed good ol' Fred Smith when he said he would match Delta's pay and take care of them. How many years did the pilots go without a payraise in the 80's? About 8 years I believe (any FedEx guys please correct me if I'm wrong - I'll check the FPA's history article).

Also, do you really speak for ALL of the pilot's there?? Doubtful, to do that you would have to have the pilot group "organized" to speak for all of them, which you of course are opposed to.

As a 727 S/O at FedEx, I've never flown 85 hard hours a month (average @30 hrs.)! Wow, that's got to be hard - day or night!! Don't let the job kill you.....I gotta go, going fishing with my kids tomorrow!

 

[AlbieF15]

While I don't think the ratio will favor military guys at JetBlue like at Delta or FedEx, there are a lot of military guys (some retired) joining JetBlue very soon. Eagleflip will have the 02-01 class breakdown if anyone is interested.

Like I mentioned last summer...Ann Rhodes wanted more military guys. Seems like a lot of Navy types joining them soon...another FedEx poolie like me had the choice of 2 carriers. Since Navy didn't suffer as much stop loss stuff it makes sense that there will be a Navy influx into JB for a couple months.

Albie

 

[RueterF16]

Fedex and Fred Smith

Speed,
How many of those poor fedex pilots quit because they were unhappy about their payscale at FX? I would dare say that it wasn't too many of them and had they matched UAL or DAL's payscale, do you think they would be in the same position as most other pilots?

 

[Draginass]

I sounds like you've thought this out fairly well, but here's my 2 cents worth from a guy who worked for a non-union airline for 18 months.

JB pay sounds very good for a start up, but still probably 20-30% below current industry standard (we'll see if there will be any givebacks on the new UAL and DAL contracts?). Be careful about hitching your retirement very heavily into a single airline stock (or any single stock for that matter). A lot of people at Enron did that. Also, without a successorship rights in a union contract, if JB is sold, or even if JB buys another airline, you have no legal say on how the seniority list is integrated.

I know many 747 guys at Atlas Air and Polar that were salivating to get on with JB when they first started up, more to get away from Atlas and Polar than anything else, but were very enticed by the new equipment and futuristic thinking of the company.

When Atlas started up in 93, there was no union, pay was pretty good (for a startup), upgrades quick, profit sharing, a matched 401k, and everybody was happy (especially a lot of ex Eastern/Pan Am drivers) to have a job. The company was VERY profitable (generally a 12% after tax profit margin). Schedules were long and tough but the crew force wanted to make it work. There they are 9 years later, pay scales haven't changed, still a 401k, had to sue the company to get their promised profit sharing, reduced benefits, worse schedules (for instance, everybody in MIA is now on 19 days a month reserve), must jumpseat to work vice having the company buy you a ticket, etc, etc. Finally, after the company was the third most profitable airline in the world and no longer considered a startup, the company still refused to raise any payrates AT ALL or reduce the heavy schedules. Consequently, pay "real" pay has actually gone down and, of course, there has been no movement toward industry standard. Schedules are still lousy for everybody, no change in retirement, etc etc. After 3 years of negotiation, their union still does not have their first contract.

Maybe JB can break the typical airline mould of labor relations -- but it hasn't been done yet, at least in the long run -- not even Southwest. Enjoy the ride with JB, but keep you SA up, especially a few years from now.

Good luck.

 

[side stick-n]

Speedracer,

I've never spoken for anyone other than myself. I am only passing along what others have indicated when the discussion has arisen. I also don't take pop shots at others based on their opinions. I may not always agree but I will still respect others ideas. I worked for a very long time for an "organized" carrier (no, not Eastern and no, I'm not a scab) and my opinion is that organization is only necessary under certain situations. Dragonass points out the advantage of organization in the event of a merger or buy-out. Based on our current situation, my opinion is this is the only reason for organization. However, it is also my opinion that the consequenses of such at this point far outweigh the protection that may be gained. You are correct in saying that I am opposed at this point in time. I am, however, also open minded and would not hesitate to change my position if the need presented itself. I hope that never happens as I prefer the current "team" oriented relationship we have. BTW, that 85 hours can be obtained in as little as 12 days. Efficiency leads to low cost per ASM = $$$. Have fun fishing with your kids tomorrow. A healthy ratio of family time to work time is one of our bigger values. I'm glad it is to you also.

 

[JayDub]

Draginass,

First, let me say my head is swimming with thoughts, so pardon me if I don't put this as eloquently or as tactfully as I'd like. I am trying to express myself without trying to offend anyone. Unionization is a sore subject, no matter which side of the fence you are on.

I would suggest not advocating "sharing the pie" right now. At United, that would mean working for less than nothing. Also, unionizing for the sake of unionizing is almost as dumb as not unionizing for the sake of not unionizing.

Our current payscale is the result of a raise we were to receive on Oct. 1. After 9-11, they suspended it until mid-Nov. when we got it, plus retro pay. How many times have you heard of that happening without any negotiations? Also, we got this after they took a survey and found a few key areas, including pay, that needed attention. They made adjustments in all of those identified areas, on their own. Tell me that's not an industry first!

This pay scale puts us between SWA and America West. This is pretty incredible since both of those airlines are not only union, but have been around a lot longer than two years and operate more than 21 airplanes!

As far as unions go, we have to be realistic. jetBlue is a small carrier. Unless you are United or Delta, and now NWA (because of Duane Woerth), you can expect little to no attention from ALPA National. Look at Emery. They were ALPA, paid less than we are, and shut down mainly to SCOPE problems (they refused to even mention SCOPE in their negotiations even as Ryan, et al were flying their freight in their aircraft!). Or, better yet, Comair. Those poor folks were struggling for basic work rules. Then, Delta's pilots saw the opportunity in their company to negotiate a United plus 1% contract, leaving the Comair folks with no teeth to their threat to have both work groups on strike at the same time.

I don't know too much about Atlas. That is to say, if they have solid work rules. You'll notice my profile shows I came from the jet charter and corporate ranks. There, the work rules changed by the day. I could write a dissertation on horror stories from my five years alone. At jetBlue, we have solid work rules. We have minimum credits per day, strict seniority system, and a block or sked, whichever is higher pay system. Plus many more that others only dream about. If you don't think work rules are important, ask those Comair folks the struck for three months!

Our VP of Ops promised to look at our payscale in two-three years. As far as I am concerned, his word is Gold right now. Ask any one who worked for him at CAL Micronesia (SP?), or People's Express and you'll hear the same thing.

The people I work with are some of the most pessimistic people I know, and with good reason. They come from such industry hallmarks as Fineair, Emery, Atlas, Kalettta, etc. If this mgmt. team can keep them happy, then you can expect things to remain as they are for quite some time.

Needless to say, we'll keep your words in mind. I am aware that they are not without merit. However, until this company shows me that they are any less true to their word than they are now, I am happy with where things are. Like I say, if you keep our age and size in mind, we are getting paid and treated with dignity and respect. Isn't that exactly why other carriers went union, is because they felt neither dignity, nor respect from their mgmt.? Isn't that whole purpose of a union?

Again, hope I didn't offend. Thanks for the lively debate. Take care, and have a great New Year!

 

[SpeedBird]

JayDub:

To add to your point about Management's decision to increase pilot's pay. They not only did it after obtaining feedback from the pilots' survey. They also did it despite the fact that every pilot hired is now under a five-year labor contract which stipulates pay scales for the period.

This in unheard of in my knowledge of the airline business in the last twenty years of labor agreements. That speaks volumes as to how management at jetBlue is bending over backwards to build a foundation of trust between themselves and the pilots. They also understand that if they piss off the pilots, then they will run off and organize.

There is a huge incentive not to commit the same mistakes that other management teams have committed throughout the business for years. Another benefit of being a new carrier is that you don't have to overcome the "baggage" and ill-will that exists at almost all other traditional, unionized carriers.

As long as both groups can keep this trust and communication open, collective bargaining representation is not a priority. If anybody can pull this off over the long-term, it will be jetBlue.

 

[oriondriver]

Wow I wish I could get a job with Jet Blue so we could all just sit around and sing Kumbaya. Back in the late 70's and early 80's a company called Peoples Express was going to revolutionize the industry. I wonder what happened to them?

 

[falcon20]

Another wonderful word of Enthusiasm from Oriondriver, " Im not worthy". God Help Us at SWA.

 

[SpeedBird]

Hey Orion, you should be glad that there is at least one company in this wacky industry of ours, where at least a few of your professional brothers and sisters truly enjoy coming to work; who feel good about their working relationship with management, and who get to pursue their passion of flying. All while earning wages that exceed the average U.S. income by a factor of at least 500%.

No one at jetBlue is trying to puff up their chests, and neither do they possess a "holier than thou" attitude.

At the same time we're not a bunch of boy scouts who are naive about the "realities" of the airline business. If things change for the worst, you can bet your a$$ we'll take care of our own.

 

[Draginass]

JayDub -
Don't misconsrue my comments. Like I said JB seems to be doing everything right, at least right now. Nor would I recommend that you unionize right now either. There's no sense in paying union dues of $150 a month or so if you are happy with you compensation and work rules.

I think you did catch my drift that it's something to keep in the back of your head, especially if management's attitude and actions become different, like they did in Atlas' case. Their pilots spent a few years resisting organizing AFTER things got really bad and lost a couple of years on a contract. Everybody thought they could bring management around . . . but to no avail.

Unionizing now for JB would probably not be in your best interest anyway, this early in the life of the airline.

Recommend you read "Confessions of a Union Buster." A great book that really shows the insides of what really goes on in MANY companies. Hopefully JB will resist that kind of draconian attitude.
BUT, it's in your best interest to at least know the ins and outs of labor - management relations.

Like I said: Have faith that maybe JB will break the historical mould of airline/labor relations. I hope so, but at the same time, don't be naive. If you've got guys from Atlas and Kaletta, they've smelled plenty of rats before and will know 'em when they smell 'em again.

Good luck to all at JB!

 

[JayDub]

Draginass,

I'll certainly pick it up when I have the time. Right now I am reading "Flying the Line II". Man, is that going slow. All that reading makes my lips tired.

Believe me, if the time is ever right, like Speedbird says "we'll take care of our own". But, you really have to look at the history of people to see where they are coming from.

Have you heard of Robert Ferguson? He is the guy with Midway Version 2.0, make that 3.0. He came from Continental, and was basically everything Bethune identified as being "the worst". He has a history of running airlines into the ground.

On the other hand, the manager of the EWR hub, and the Guam operation (I think he managed Guam, atleast) were two of the reasons Bethune was able to turn things around, among many other things of course. Those two people are 2/3 of our upper mgmt. team now.

Also, have you heard any old Morris Air pilots bad mouth Neeleman? I've never heard anything like that. As previouly mentioned, the fact Kellerher mad him sign a non-compete speaks volumes.

I think evventually (hopefully years down the road) we'll get so big, that it will be recognized we need a union. That happens also. Sometimes you need a formal way of resolving issues without involving your company folks every time. I think when that does happen, unless things change drastically, I'd expect to see an in-house union. It would be much less confrontational too.

Besides, most everybody came from smaller carriers represented by ALPA. I've heard many of them talk about how they didn't care for the treatment they got from ALPA National, as a small carrier. Some were highly involved in the union at their old job, and atleast one swore to me he'd never let ALPA get on the property.

I doubt it would be possible for him to do that by himself. He would, I think, have a lot of support though. That is something ALPA has to realize. They are really pi$$ing people off with their treatment of small carriers. We have some folks here from Trans-States. Some of them don't care much at all for ALPA and how they felt they were treated.

Anyhow, thanks so much for your comments. They are welcome. Talk to you soon.


JayDub

 

[FlyDeltasJets]

Albie,
Congratualations. You made the right choice. I hope you enjoy a long and prosperous career.

P.S.
We still have to have that beer!

P.P.S.
JayDub, you are both simplistic and inaccurate in your version of the Comair strike and the help they recieved from Delta. That, however, has been done to death on the general board, so I won't get into it!

 

[vschip]

Gents, I have a solution to this arguement, lets all come back when were 60 and compare notes, ok? Maybe it just me and my small brain, but it seems to me we're all pretty much overpaid, so if your happy at your job, good for you. Been at Fedex for 6 months and love it, know guys who have the JB/Fedex choice coming up, and everyone of them has reasons for the decision they made either for JB or Fedex. Like I told my captain last night "I'm just happy to have a job", and I hope to work for the same company til I retire.

 

[FlyDeltasJets]

vschip,
Not sure about you, but I am definately not overpaid. I have heard many guys say they were overpaid, and that attitude is one of the reasons that our compensation has fallen in real dollar terms over the last 20 years. You have worked very hard to be in the position you are, and have earned every penny you make.

 

[F18-FDX]

Just to throw in my two cents, FedEx was my first choice over a couple major passenger carriers. If recent events haven't proven the importance of a well-established, well-run company in a profitable sector with plenty of growth potential, I don't know what will. I'm fairly new, but from what I've seen so far, I love FedEx and personnally I don't want to be anywhere near a passenger airline, let alone a startup. I can live where I want, plenty of future choices as far as aircraft / great commuting schedule (try to get 7-on 7-off, 14-on 14-off at a pax airline) / domestic / international, a CONTRACT, vacation, retirement plans, a great bunch of guys to work with, etc... A few months ago people were asking "why are you going with FedEx?" Now they're asking for recommendations. 'Nuff said.

 

[FlyDeltasJets]

F18,
If people were asking you "why FedEx?", they obviously do not know much about the industry. FedEx is a wonderful company, and you are right to be proud. Delta was my first choice, but had they not called, I would have loved to work for FedEx. You and Albie will have GREAT careers. Congrats.

 

[F18-FDX]

Thanks Delta, as will you. Not a better "pax" company out there!