JetBlue to Make Major News Announcement

[StopNTSing]

Wow, in 2-3 years there will be so many RJs flying around the East Coast - they will be like nats.... Keep your head up when you fly into the New York area - probably RJs all over the place...

That's right....until there isn't enough airspace to fit them all in. Then mainline aircraft are all of the sudden going to look real attractive again.

I think history will show this moment to be either the beginning of JB's status as a legitimate major airline, or the beginning of their demise.

 

[SleepyF18]

As far as pay and fence goes for the Jet Blue guys, this is off of ATW today regarding what Neeleman had to say to the press.

Pilots currently flying for JetBlue will stay with the A320 fleet "and will be an A320 captain before these planes even come," he said. "There will be a certain amount of fencing where [future] pilots will go to one aircraft type and stay there." A320 captains will receive the highest pay, followed by Embraer 190 captains. Pilots will have a one-time opportunity to transition permanently from one fleet type to the other. "We're not going to have bouncing back and forth," which adds cost and complexity.

Looks like no transitioning back and forth according to what the boss thinks.

Sleepy

 

[Networ-King]

General,

Why don't you tell me what good things you've heard about the ERJ 145 and I'll let you know if it was BS or not. Just because there is glass in the cockpit doesn't make it a good cockpit. Its a very dirty cockpit compared to the bus. And the performance on the ERJ is embarassing. Specially if you have a full boat of pax on a warm day.

 

[General Lee]

Networ-king,

Well, you probably have a lot more experience in it than I do. You are right, I just jump sat in it once from CLE--ATL, and I thought it was nice with all of the glass. It was a little loud in the cockpit, but I flew the 727 as an FE and lost most of my hearing that way. You are probably right--I was just a jumpseater.


This is an interesting quote about Jetblue and the 100 seater:

"Pilots currently flying for JetBlue will stay with the A320 fleet and will be an A320 captain before these planes even come," he said. "There will be a certain amount of fencing where [future] pilots will go to one aircraft type and stay there." A320 captains will receive the highest pay, followed by Embraer 190 captains. Pilots will have a one-time opportunity to transition permanently from one fleet type to the other. "We're not going to have bouncing back and forth," which adds cost and complexity."


So, you have a one time chance to switch aircraft, huh? Interesting. That could cap your pay if you choose to stay on the 100 seater. So, if you are an FO on the airbus, and want to be a Captain on both the 100 seater and the A320 someday, you won't be able to do it. You could switch to the 100 seater, but then you couldn't go back to the airbus. Hmmm. That doesn't sound that good. I guess the best way to fly both would be to be hired initially onto the 100 seater, and then eventually upgrade to the A320. But what if down the road there is a big pay disparity between the two planes? What if Jetblue gets A321's in 5 years and has a $20 an hour pay difference? Will the current A320 FO's bid to fly Captain on the EMB190 and never be able to come back to the A320? Some might not want to do it, and they will have to hire Captains off of the street. This could turn into a mess. Maybe both aircraft should have the same pay.
This whole issue will eventually be cleared up when you get your first union.

Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[skirt]

It will be quite interesting to see where the first JB EMB-190's are deployed. I can imagine that UsAirways could be in trouble on the East Coast. Looking outside the east coast, I think that United and Alaska could be in trouble on the West Coast. Of course, United is in trouble anyway.

The EMB-190 could be a very effective tool for some of the west coast markets that United pulled out of, but Alaska/Horizon flys (ie. Medford, Eugene, Spokane, Boise). Alaska has a similar customer service focus, but they don't have the TV's. JetBlue only has 4% of the N-S west coast market which has been locked up by United (or UA express), Alaska and Southwest. I don't see JB going head to head against SWA, but what might the impact be on the others on the West Coast, as LGB flying is expanded? I'm curious if Alaska folks see JB as a threat? Clearly United should see it as a threat. Any thoughts on the west coast implications of the JB EMB-190? I think it is a very smart move to "buy and fly" the smaller jets internally, and the west coast may be a big place to use the capibilities of the smaller jets.

skirt

 

[trainerjet]

The EMB-190 could be a very effective tool for some of the west coast markets that United pulled out of, but Alaska/Horizon flys (ie. Medford, Eugene, Spokane, Boise). Alaska has a similar customer service focus, but they don't have the TV's. JetBlue only has 4% of the N-S west coast market which has been locked up by United (or UA express), Alaska and Southwest. I don't see JB going head to head against SWA, but what might the impact be on the others on the West Coast, as LGB flying is expanded? I'm curious if Alaska folks see JB as a threat?

OK, I'll bite. Alaska has a solid reputation when it comes to customer service, as well as an established, loyal customer base. I think we'll be ok.

As far as TV goes, it might be important on longer haul and coast-to-coast flights, but I don't think the average customer cares about TV on flights of an hour. I don't see these EMB-190s doing long haul flights, so the TV is not going to be that much of a difference maker on this aircraft and it's routes.

 

[AAsRedHeadedbro]

In response to respond to Networ-King's statements concerning the 145:

I fly the 145. Apparently you did too. I will admit that the airplane is not in the same class as the Airbus. However, the plane is not the "Beer can" POS that some people imply that it is.

The engines could definitely use some more climb thrust between FL180 and FL310. Interestingly, the engineers have programmed the FADEC's to hold N1 more or less steady, down in the high 80's, between those altitudes and then suddenly increase the N1 values above FL310 substantially. Therefore, above FL310, the airplane will easily hold 1000 fpm all the way up to FL370, the service ceiling, while climbing at .77. However, first one must struggle to get the airplane through FL310 at a reasonable speed - I'll start off at 300 Knots and about 1000 fpm, slowing to about 270 to hold that same 1000 fpm up at FL310. So, yea, the airplane does not perform in the climb relative to the Airbuses or the Boeings, but compared to other aircraft in the plane's category, it does just fine.

In terms of speed, while it doesn't do .80 like the bus, it will cruise at .78 at any weight and at any altitude. That's not bad for the short missions it typically flies. And its normal cruise speed is faster than the normal cruise speed of the CRJ 100's and 200's (I know, I know - their limits are higher than that, but I also know from talking to friends of mine who fly those airplanes that their normal cruise speed is somewhere around .75). It's all relative anyway. The .80 speed of an A-320 or B-757 is relatively slow compared to the Long-range birds like the 747, 777, and A-340, which cruise at .85 or so.

It DOES have a loud cockpit. However, from what I've been told, the Biz jet version of the airplane has a very quiet cockpit supposedly comparable to the 757. I've been told that the noise is mostly a function of the amount of, or lack of, cockpit sound insulation installed at the behest of regional airline managements trying to save a buck everywhere.

The radar is limited due to its 12-inch dish. If the airplane didn't have such a pointy little nose, they could've gotten a bigger dish in there. Supposedly Embraer is, or was, working on retrofitting larger dishes to the airplanes but the airlines (my airline at least) are not willing to ante up the extra dough for the retrofit in these tough economic times.

Honeywell is only now finally getting a handle on some of the autoflight system bugs, like capturing the localizer with a 1/4 scale offset every time and then correcting the offset quite aggressively after a 20 second delay. The latest EICAS software update, 18.5, eliminates that glitch, among other things. As far as the cockpit being "dirty", I'm not really sure what is meant by that. The overhead panel looks like a Boeing product - because Embraer went to Boeing and asked them to help design the systems and systems interface, i.e. - the overhead panel. It is very user friendly. The Universal UNS-1K FMS's that our airline has installed are easy to use and fairly capable. While there are a few functions that I would like to see added, I am happy with the boxes overall. They make my life much easier.

The airplane's handling characteristics are fine, IMO. Granted, I have not flown the Boeing or Airbus products but the Embraer is a nice flying airplane. It goes where you point it. It exhibits very little Dutch roll. It lands very nicely and easily, even in rough weather. In short, it is an easy airplane to fly.

The airplane is small - what can I say. It's true. However, once again, size is all relative. The Bus is tiny compared to any widebody. However it doesn't serve the same mission as the widebodies out there. Same idea for the Embraer. While it would be nice to have a larger cabin, for what it does - 45 minute to 2-hour legs max - the cabin is adequate. The new generation of Embraers solves the size problem however.

As far as durability, I'll simply offer up the fact that the fuselage is directly descended from the EMB-120 Brasilia, which started service in the mid 80's. Many of those airplanes, which have led a tough commuter life down in the weather and have endured many more landings than any comparably aged big jet are still serving day in and day out 16+ years after they entered service. Many of these same aircraft are now being retrofitted for new careers as cargo haulers. So anyone who says the airplanes are poorly built "throw away" beer cans is simply misinformed. Its extended service record speaks for itself.

IMO, I think the biggest stigma this airplane carries is that it was designed and built in Brazil. The overall feeling seems to be "How could those third world Brazilians possibly make a decent airplane? They are obviously inferior to us in the 'First World'". Just listen to the derogatory nickname used for the airplane - Jungle Jet. The implication is that natives from the jungles of Brazil somehow decided to wander out of their forest and build an airplane.

I certainly do not think that the 145 is the greatest jet ever built, far from it, (for that matter, neither is the Airbus) but I also do not feel that it is nearly the piece of junk that some people say it is. Overall, it is a fine bird and I am happy to fly the thing.

 

[Russ]

We cruise the CRJ at my company at either .74 or .77 for economy. To say that the ERJ is faster is a fallacy. Easy to look up from the paper and see it at .82 or so. There are many areas the super taco grande is better than the CRJ. Speed isn't one of them however.

 

[AAsRedHeadedbro]

I only go by what my friends tell me since I have never flown the CRJ. I do know that just a couple of days ago I listened in on a conversation while inbound to LAX. These guys were below us at FL290:

Center - Skywest xxxx, say your mach please.

SKW - .74 sir.

Center - Can you pick it up a little? You've got Southwest catching up to you.

SKW - This is about all we can give you, sir. Sorry.

Center - Roger. Southwest xxxx, turn left 30 degrees for spacing on the RJ traffic in front of you.

SWA - 30 degree left. Roger. Could you ask him to pick up his speed a little?

Center - I already did sir. He was unable. 30 left please.

SWA - OK. 30 left. Why are those RJ's always so slow? This always seems to happen to us.

I hear conversations like this frequently. Now I realize that going downhill you guys in the 50 seat CRJ's can blow past us at .85 or so, but in level flight most of you folks in the CRJ's seem to be doing about .74 to .75. If this is simply because that's your normal cruise, then why not pick it up a little when Center asks? Why say "unable" when the airplane will go faster? I tend to believe my buddies who tell me that the bird just won't go much faster in level flight at normal cruise power at normal weights.

On the other hand, from what I hear, the CRJ-700 is a real missile. The guys that fly that thing tell me it is overpowered. They tell me that it's an awesome climber; that it will cruise at .85 if you let it (in level flight). That's what they tell me anyway.

BTW - Above FL310, we have to watch our speed like a hawk because the airplane will accelerate to .80 (even though our limit is .78) with ease. I personally wish Embraer would've certified the airplane to some speed above .80, but what are you gonna do, eh?

But anyway, I’ve got nothing against the CRJ. I think it’s a fine airplane. I would be happy to fly it, just as I am happy to fly my “Super Taco Grande”.

 

[Networ-King]

Hey redhead,

From your profile you've been at Eagle your whole career, I might have even thrown gear for you in the ATR's, but for you to jump in this little discussion with no experience in ANY other jet, well thats a little ballzy. Now I have had the pleasure of flying both birds and first of all the bus is an .82 airplane not an .80 and what I meant by a dirty cockpit was all the button all over the place for your FGC, MFD systems, etc..... just crap everywhere. The ERJ is better then alot of jets out there, but I was comparing it to the bus and the 737. Your story about the SWA 737 has a couple of holes in it also....... seeing how they are one of the slowest boeings out there. I have not flown any other boeings, but unless its the 737-800 or 900 its freaking slow. .78 if memory serves right. Also don't forget that the CRJ's that your comparing your ERJ's to are a little bit older and more used up.

When you talk about speeds of 270 in the climb thats a sure give away of its performance....... New York center would chew you a new one at rush hour....... Dutch roll you say? How about straight and level on the AP...... Dutch rolls the whole way..... yeah real nice...... I never used it in the NAV mode for Loc Capture after the first time, because the first time I did, I had to see a chiropractor.... No sir I didn't like how it was dancing around.......Radar? Might as well go back to my freight days and ask center for the best heading or I'd like to follow united through that hole please. Landing? Huh? How about the handle bars hitting the leg in a strong X wind? Noisey? Next time you fly this pig..... sit down in your FO's seat and look at the top of the windshield....... it says it right on the darn thing that its made for an EMB 120. Don't know what the hell your talking about sound proofing for..... when you put jet engines on a body that was designed for a turbo prop....well sir you have an inferior airplane. And please don't continue to tell me about airplanes you have no idea about........ I've managed to keep a 1500 fpm climb in the bus up to 390 with 225 souls on board at 320kts. Yes an A-320 with 179 seats 3 up front 7 flight attendants and a $hit load of lap children. I've blocked that airplane up to 6 hours and 45 minutes with IFR reserves. If thats not long haul I don't know what is........not all airlines are like Eagle....... been there done that..... wish I never had that T-shirt. So you see, Im not setting up BS here or any flamebait...... and ofcourse this is just MHO. Any other Bus people or ERJ people please chime in if you disagree.