JetBlue Scope FAIL.

[Bavarian Chef]

Posting company email (even an excerpt) may not jive with the CBB. Be careful.

Oh -- but thanks for doing it.

 

[Flyby1206]

If that happens, I'd imagine most of the Caribbean flying would get farmed out. Q400s got decent legs on it, and I could see it doing runs from MCO or FLL that the 190 does now.

Ugh... Republic is shutting down the Lynx certificate, but keeping 3 of the Q400s and transferring them to the Republic certificate. JB contracting RAH to do Caribbean flying? Please no!

 

[aewanabe]

welcome to the dark side..

Not particularly, especially when I never claimed to know it all. In the meantime, I can answer yes to 2 of the above, though I was IBT before. Can I play now?

I'm sorry to see the direction things seem to be heading, but stand by my stance that I wouldn't go back to the previous job. To the previous poster, our rumor mill points to Cape Air (we all tend to forget they already fly ATRs aroundGuam). (QUOTE=8vATE;2033061]Boy...

You don't like it when someone calls you out for being such a hot shot know it all... guess I hit your "sensitive" nerve...

Good for me..

Yea... I see what's going on.... As Dave says... "what got us to where we are may not get us to where we want to be."

I don't want to vote ALPA in... as a LOT of guys who have been bent over by them don't want to. But they're pushing it on the pilot group.

BTW...
Did you find any higher E190 rates out there yet?
Had your ALPA A plan pension terminated yet?
Had a CH 11 yet?
Been stapled to the bottom of another list yet?
Had your "ALPA bulletproof" scope language "violated" yet?
Had your "ALPA no furlough" clause thrown out...
If you can't say "yes" to any of those questions... then maybe you don't know it all after all. :crying:
(oh.. yea.. I can say yes to all of them (except the E190 rates) ... and I will probably still vote Prater and his triple chins in... so relax).[/QUOTE]

 

[Turtle21]

Wow... what a slap in the face or a "kick in the teeth", to quote Dave B. Like it was posted above, this has been an on going process filled w/ passed deadlines and broken promises. To finally come out and say that we'll give you "culturally based" SCOPE is such an insult. If you aren't completely convinced now that the "direct relationship" is worthless than I give up on you. You are unreachable if you can't read between the lines on this one.

We've been promised for years about forthcoming SCOPE protection. How the company wants to give us industry leading SCOPE protection because they know it's very important to us and our careers. They want to give us a secure future that will benefit all. SCOPE was that carrot dangled out in front that kept luring us deeper and deeper into the abyss of the "direct relationship".

Everyone that's semi-conscious should now see that bright light in the tunnel. If we don't act soon that light will be a freight train coming to steam roll our futures in the form of a buyout or drastic changes to our flimsy "direct relationship" contracts!

See the light fellow Jetblue Pilots! We are being played on a monumental level and the time is now to act!

Tailhookah

That sucks, but you vote in ALPA and you will see what being played is. When you all finally leap you should look carefully.

 

[Turtle21]

Even disputed scope is better than none at all. Most of the scope "failures" were either trades for something else that were perceived as more valuable or bankruptcy victims. The prevailing "scope is worthless" meme is a complete myth.

I think he was referring to ALPA scope?

 

[tailhookah]

That sucks, but you vote in ALPA and you will see what being played is. When you all finally leap you should look carefully.

Without my "Alpa contract" I'd never have gotten a huge payout when NWA cancelled the pension-even though I was out on furlough!

Without my "Alpa contract" I'd never have gotten a Delta number-even though I bypassed over 4 years ago. I still have DAL recall rights for up to another 5.4 years!

Without my "Alpa contract" the NWA pilots wouldn't have paid for ALL of my health care subsidies while I was out on furlough for 5.5 years (before my bypass).

Without my "Alpa contract" I wouldn't have gotten thousands of shares of DAL stock when the merger happend, even though I was still out on furlough!

Without Alpa, we'd all be in a far worse off position in this industry. Alpa has it's drawbacks, but you can thank Alpa for all of the following (not a complete list):

-Work rigs
-Group health insurance
-A plans/B plans/401k matches/Profit sharing
-Flight time/Duty time limits
-STD/LTD plans that will pay out until you are 65!
-Scope protections
-Higher pay (even though we still haven't recovered from the mess after 9/11, compensation is on the rise)

The examples above are all due to organized pilots, mostly under Alpa and the Alpa PAC that have raised the tide for all pilots. Even those like us at Jetblue who don't have a union. Even corporate pilots as well. The going rate for pilots brings everyone up when it goes up. The biggest group of organized pilots is Alpa. Alpa spends tons of money on the political front that changes and shapes our careers. That's all part of the trappings of supporting and being Alpa.

But you guys who don't support Alpa, want all the trappings that Alpa provides and stands for w/o the 1.95%! That doesn't pass the "giggle" test and you all need to do some research and realize that Alpa didn't screw you over, it was poor MEC's, corrupt airline exec's and liberal and crappy BK judges that let the greedy companies get away with the terrible decisions that took away your futures.

Now w/ Alpa and our support we need to continue to take back our careers and work hard to finalize our futures. That's how it works. You can't have it all w/o the sacrifice of supporting the one organization that's been there working for YOU for your future!

All of the other unions have sprung up as alternatives to Alpa. But in the end Alpa is the original and has done the most for this profession. When are you guys going to learn that sometimes you have to invest in your career to make it better?

Invest in Alpa. Make your future better!

I will vote Alpa in at Jetblue! I support my future and my career!

Tailhookah

 

[Hair-on-Fire]

liberal and crappy BK judges that let the greedy companies get away with the terrible decisions that took away your futures.

So it was the "liberal" judges that let the companies screw the working folks? Good to know......

 

[Bavarian Chef]

So it was the "liberal" judges that let the companies screw the working folks? Good to know......

Yeah, I was thinking the same thing. Usually the business/corporate friendly judges are conservative.

 

[MINIME]

Liberal judges huh.....

Well yeah good to know....

Let me guess; it was the "liberal" NMB that never released anyone either. Right?

It was the "liberals" that wanted cabbotage in this country.

Despite the outcome, Spirit just got released not long ago. That must have been a very conservative NMB! Wouldn't you agree?

 

[P38JLightning]

It's easy to release a 500 pilot airline to strike. In fact, it makes you look "pro labor" or at least "fair" in general at a very low (industry wide) cost. I wouldn't judge anything about the system over all based on that. It is still severely tilted towards management (conservative mentality?) and the poor, innocent, entitled traveling public (liberal?).

 

[kellwolf]

Liberal judges huh.....

Well yeah good to know....

Let me guess; it was the "liberal" NMB that never released anyone either. Right?

It was the "liberals" that wanted cabbotage in this country.

Despite the outcome, Spirit just got released not long ago. That must have been a very conservative NMB! Wouldn't you agree?

Same NMB isn't releasing Pinnacle after 5+ years of negotiations and hardly any movement whatsoever. In fact, we're on ice. I'd say that cancels out the Spirit "success story."

 

[P38JLightning]

Exactly. And if anyone points that out the NMB (or whoever) can say "yeah, but Spirit was released, so it's all fair." They have to release someone every once in a while no matter which administration appointed them.

 

[MINIME]

Listen, I agree that it's still not perfect. Not by a long shot! This is still a political game. These politicians all take money from the same basket.

But if you've been paying attention, some airlines have made progress. Alaska, Hawaiian, and now AirTran. I know AirTran is still not done but they are making better progress than they were a year ago. Some of it has to do with the NMB, and some of it may be due to having more competent representation. That's my understanding at least.

As for PCL, I don't exactly know what happenned there. But I'll bet this had more to do with the internal structure not appearing in tune. Who knows? I agree however, it was bull that they got parked. That just emboldened management even more. I'm sure the ATA was jumping for joy.

Airlines got away with murder with the last administration's appointments. Courts always seemed to rule in favor of management. Pensions and negotiating capital was basically taken away. Labor was essentially powerless to put up any legal fights against takebacks or any other labor busting moves. Let alone negotiate respectable contracts. It is what it is. But I'm open to data that suggests otherwise.

We'll see if the NMB releases FLL. They are a bigger group that has been negotiating for a long time. I believe that will be a good indicator where the NMB truly is.

 

[MINIME]

Oh! My opologies to the Jetblue guys/gals for the thread highjack.

If you want my sometimes uninformed opinion; I think you may need a union in the not so distant future. For many reasons. Scope and mergers come to mind.

 

[tailhookah]

Liberal-

There are many meanings for this word. Not just the political stance we are bombarded w/ today. Below are a few, which I used the term in my context. Open up your minds to the fact that everything isn't always what you think it is. Like the closed mindedness of some over the organization of Alpa... Alpa is only as good as the individual MEC's.

Other meanings of the defined word "liberal":

having political or social views favoring reform and progress
tolerant of change; not bound by authoritarianism, orthodoxy, or tradition

Especially the second bullet... the judges were unorthodox to our contracts and were tolerant of change of those contracts against the tradition of airline contracts... what happend under the "guise" of Force Majeure was unorthodox and we all got set back at least a decade in pay and work rules.

Force Majeure should not have been used as a factor to continue furloughs well into 2002, 2003 and beyond. It shouldn't have also been a factor used in BK courts to rape and pillage the contracts.

Tailhookah

 

[Hair-on-Fire]

Force Majeure should not have been used as a factor to continue furloughs well into 2002, 2003 and beyond. It shouldn't have also been a factor used in BK courts to rape and pillage the contracts.

Tailhookah

Was it? Weren't they using Bankruptcy law and the authority of the Bankruptcy court to modify contracts?

I look at Liberal as meaning "Progressive" without the negative connotation FOX has thrown on it. Although I guess that means Conservative = Regressive then. jk

 

[hecbir]

jet blue q 400 in sju?

 

[tailhookah]

I look at Liberal as meaning "Progressive" without the negative connotation FOX has thrown on it. Although I guess that means Conservative = Regressive then. jk

That's the problem these days. Everyone has their outlook only and will not do any research to fact check or to see something from a different perspective.

Just like this whole "Alpa sucks" phrase I hear so much. Yet it's a very naive statement to make, usually made by people whose very jobs were either saved by Alpa or at least while they had those "Alpa" jobs were made much better because of Alpa. When they lost those "Alpa" jobs they were probably given much more due to Alpa's veil then they would've had w/o Alpa.

When your house burns down, you may not totally like the payout you get from your insurance compnay but it still will help you rebuild your old house, pay for your stay in a hotel and put new clothes and food on your table. It may not get you back to where you were, but it'll get you back on your feet and protect your family in the meantime. But just like a CBA, insurance is what you pay for or negotiate w/ your agent.

Alpa is the same way. Any court of law can overturn any contract. It depends on how liberally the judge feels to modify "said" contract. Notice that I just used that "word" in a non-political setting!

So in the end, there are many different meanings and interpretations on everything. Just because you don't like FOX News doesn't mean you are a Democrat or vice/versa...

We all got hosed by the legal system after 9/11. If we all had some unity and backed our brothers in all companies under a single union, we'd all be better off. Have any of you ever picketed w/ another pilot or flight attendant group from another airline? I have...

If we were smarter, we'd all join Alpa... even SWAPA guys and IBT and all those other in-house unions. The rising tide would float all our boats and we'd all be better off in the long run.

Tailhookah

 

[Neubyfly]

jet blue q 400 in sju?

They will be flown by Eagle.

 

[PHXFLYR]

vote early vote often

Any representation is better than no representation.

...unless it's USAPA.


PHXFLYR