Jetblue Pilots Vote Union Down

[BeachBummer]

You're right! Rational pilots do want a union!

When you fix it I'll vote for it.

I voted but This was like hoping that Oscar Dela hoya would knockout Mike Tyson. It was a bad bet.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

This is the fundamental problem!! ALPA in a word just plain sucks. ok 3 words. National sets no presidence for its followers. It's like having a chain that has 400 links that don't connect. It has no preferential hiring into other carriers no job placment for furloughed individuals no pay protection in the event of job loss. Look what the UAW has done. If alpa had half the nads of the uaw it might be worth something... it's a paper tiger that is easily burt when times are tough.

Have you considered your expectations? Why do you expect ALPA to be something it is not?


That is like saying all of our cars run on gasoline and not alternative energy.... We have to be some where to get to where we are going...

Should vehicles have skipped gas and gone straight to electricity 100 years ago? Maybe solar? Could they have?

Should ALPA be better? Of course... at one time, only CA's could be ALPA members, then FO's only had 1/2 votes.

The real question is, will ALPA and unions get better if you trash talk them, criticize and reject them?

Will ALPA get better with or without your support and membership?

When you fix it I'll vote for it.

I voted but This was like hoping that Oscar Dela hoya would knockout Mike Tyson. It was a bad bet.

Why? Why is the onus on me? And not you? You want the benefits and reward of a good union, but not the responsibility or effort?

 

[tzflyer]

It's interesting to me that nobody seems to think that maybe it wasn't a union that was the problem, but rather that it was going to be underfunded(1% dues of 2000 Pilots) and undersupported with at best a little over 50% support. What kind of leverage is that? I flew with not one pilot willing to strike, how do you expect to negotiate a good deal?
The quickest way for JB to end up with a strong and realistic union is for the managment team to piss off 80% and then have a union with enough support(money and volunteers) to truly make a difference.
Not voting for JBPA doesn't mean that the person is non union, just not for this union.
AirTran with 2% dues is looking to go ALPA and lacks funds. They have gone through many years of turmoil to get to that point, and it seems maybe we learned a lesson there?
Pilots don't normally like to work for free, and that would get old quickly, leading to the need for more dues for FPL.
Writing in ALPA or teamsters was in reality a vote for JBPA. So if you didn't like the in house union, does that mean you should not be allowed to jumpseat?
There are many reasons people arrived at the decisions they did, but just like a presidential election, it is over and we need to pull together until the next one.
A weak union could be worse than none....

 

[Frap]

It's interesting to me that nobody seems to think that maybe it wasn't a union that was the problem, but rather that it was going to be underfunded(1% dues of 2000 Pilots) and undersupported with at best a little over 50% support. What kind of leverage is that? I flew with not one pilot willing to strike, how do you expect to negotiate a good deal?
The quickest way for JB to end up with a strong and realistic union is for the managment team to piss off 80% and then have a union with enough support(money and volunteers) to truly make a difference.
Not voting for JBPA doesn't mean that the person is non union, just not for this union.
AirTran with 2% dues is looking to go ALPA and lacks funds. They have gone through many years of turmoil to get to that point, and it seems maybe we learned a lesson there?
Pilots don't normally like to work for free, and that would get old quickly, leading to the need for more dues for FPL.
Writing in ALPA or teamsters was in reality a vote for JBPA. So if you didn't like the in house union, does that mean you should not be allowed to jumpseat?
There are many reasons people arrived at the decisions they did, but just like a presidential election, it is over and we need to pull together until the next one.
A weak union could be worse than none....

I agree. Saying JB was only 300-some odd pilots (or whatever the number was) away from having 50%+1 is somewhat misguided. That number doesn't sound like a strong union voice to me.

That you didn't fly with anyone willing to walk (Not that the threat of a strike holds much water anymore) is most concerning but not surprising. I always wondered that if a union was voted in, what the number of pilots willing to walk laps would be.

The voting results confirmed the answer.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

It's interesting to me that nobody seems to think that maybe it wasn't a union that was the problem, but rather that it was going to be underfunded(1% dues of 2000 Pilots) and undersupported with at best a little over 50% support. What kind of leverage is that? I flew with not one pilot willing to strike, how do you expect to negotiate a good deal?
The quickest way for JB to end up with a strong and realistic union is for the management team to piss off 80% and then have a union with enough support(money and volunteers) to truly make a difference.
Not voting for JBPA doesn't mean that the person is non union, just not for this union.
AirTran with 2% dues is looking to go ALPA and lacks funds. They have gone through many years of turmoil to get to that point, and it seems maybe we learned a lesson there?
Pilots don't normally like to work for free, and that would get old quickly, leading to the need for more dues for FPL.
Writing in ALPA or teamsters was in reality a vote for JBPA. So if you didn't like the in house union, does that mean you should not be allowed to jumpseat?
There are many reasons people arrived at the decisions they did, but just like a presidential election, it is over and we need to pull together until the next one.
A weak union could be worse than none....

So why not vote in representation and make the JBPA what it should be... Sorbie and Evans were only providing an opportunity for JBPA, or rather the pilots themselves, to self govern.

You could have made it whatever you collectively wanted. If Sorbie and Evans didn't provide a policy manual and C&BL then they would have been chided for not being informative enough. Yet, they provided a frame work with these documents with the caveat that if approved, the JBPA could be made into whatever the pilots and electorate wanted. And that was the line of failure... As soon as S and E put the responsibility on to the pilot group, the line was crossed and the jb pilots folded like cheap lawn chairs...

And the BoBs knew they could easily monkey wrench the process by debating the details... It never was about the details... it was about the fundamental right of representation.


What you are really saying is, you don't like what the JBPA had set up, because it required you and all jb pilots to do the heavy lifting......right?

I mean really, like most other union pilots, ALPA included, you want to pay your dues and get back to your Xbox, or family, or whatever you want to do.... and have your career served up just like you like it...

 

[Golden Falcon]

ALPA has two major tasks as I see it..

1) push the FAA to enforce new FTL's on the airlines

2) Get airlines out from under the Railways labor act..

They will be largely toothless until they accomplish item #2

 

[CFIT]

Just cannot believe rational pilots would not want a union?

I agree, just not ALPO.

Too far gone to fix.

The fruit has rotted, putting it back in the refrigerator isn't going to solve the problem.

 

[tzflyer]

So why not vote in representation and make the JBPA what it should be.

Because there wasn't enough support to make it work amongst this group now, enough aren't frustrated yet. 10-12 years for AT and they still can't make it work..long time to be frustrated and paying for the privledge



What you are really saying is, you don't like what the JBPA had set up, because it required you and all jb pilots to do the heavy lifting......right?

I have done your "heavy lifting" at many other airlines, including committee chairmanship under IBT and ALPA. I am saying they didn't seem to have what I thought would be effective, would you go buy a product or service you viewed as ineffective? I don't mean S and E were the problem, I mean the lack of money(1%) and lack of support amongst the group would have doomed them now. I never had to decide whether I wanted to be represented because the vehicle being sold didn't meet my needs.
Please don't try to read into "what I am really saying, I am saying what I am really saying"
tz

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Because there wasn't enough support to make it work amongst this group now, enough aren't frustrated yet. 10-12 years for AT and they still can't make it work..long time to be frustrated and paying for the privledge

Well, if all the BoBs werent running around trying to get street cred by qualifying their rediculous arguements with "I was an ALPA ____________, I know what I am talking about...."

I have done your "heavy lifting" at many other airlines, including committee chairmanship under IBT and ALPA.

Then you know what works well and what doesn't. Guys like you are the perfect volunteers to apply workable repsresentation unique to JB.

I am saying they didn't seem to have what I thought would be effective,

Then make it effect.... This isn't an auction. This is the profession and your career.

would you go buy a product or service you viewed as ineffective?

This isn't consumerism. This is the profession. The profession isn't something you buy.

I don't mean S and E were the problem, I mean the lack of money(1%) and lack of support amongst the group would have doomed them now.

And all the ex union guys who knew best didn't do what was best...

I never had to decide whether I wanted to be represented because the vehicle being sold didn't meet my needs..

Of course because this is about your wallet and not the profession.

Please don't try to read into "what I am really saying, I am saying what I am really saying"
tz

When are you JB pilots going to quit acting like independent contractors and function more like professionals...??


Do we succeed and progress when we all look out for ourselves? Or do we suceed when we function as a group, a collective, a profession...

its called collective bargaining for a reason.