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JetBlue or UAL

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While this is true, you need to have been hired and signed that contract with JB PRIOR to your initial recall.

When I was hired at JB I figured about a 10% chance that I'd return to UAL. Now, it has completely changed. Unless things start changing at JB I'll probably return to UAL sometime next year.

I think JB has about 1700 pilots now. If you decide to stay at JB with a 1700+ seniority number it will be many, many years until you have the chance to upgrade to A320 captain, which is the only seat at JB where one can make decent money. And, unless you have 25+ years until retirement you will stay junior on the Airbus for most of your career as there are many young A320 captains at JB.

One of the biggest reasons I am seriously considering going back to UAL is because of ALPA. I know that their reputation hasn't been stellar in the past five years, but when UAL's contract is up in '09 I believe that the pilot group will be demanding increases in pay and benefits. At JB we have no representation and just have to take whatever management tells us they can afford.

There are way too many factors involved for any of us here on FI to give you sound advice. In the end it will be a personal choice based on the facts you have at the time. Unfortunately, none of us has a crystal ball.

Good luck with your decision.

GP

You certainly are correct about ALPA's less than stellar performance but that is a topic for another day.
I wouldn't hold my breath until 2009 before you see any changes to wages. There are far too many possibilites as to what what the landscape will look like for United before that day comes. Based on your comments, I will venture to guess that you have had two airlines your entire career, United and JB. Both are very different from one another on many levels. You simply cannot compare the two. As you said, GP...Good Luck with your decision.
 
Not only that she used to rag on all the guys who worked at commuters about how she "fits" in at UAL even though she had 325TT! She use to be on the old Compuserve forums I think it was called AVSIG back then.

I am GLAD she is no longer working at UAL. I hope a bunch more of the Wonder Children leave as well!

How much time did Rick Dubinsky have when he got hired at UAL
 
Not hard to accumulate that kind of cash when you don't contribute to pensions any more and pay the rates they advertise now!

So using that line of thinking, JetBlue ought to be able to accumulate that kind of cash too. Right?

I would go with which ever of the two has the best personal advantages for you - commuting, etc. The compensation at both airlines is awful.
 
Back to the thread at hand...

Albie you made some really good points about both airlines...

I've been with JB almost 5 years now... definitely a big change from the beginning at JB... JB has pretty much turned into just another airline with all the associated problems... from what I've been hearing with us, most of the short term growth will be on the 190 side... with 1700 pilots already and 230 total bus orders (7 Capts/aircraft), and a young pilot group, one can pretty much say that all the bus Capts have already been hired on the property for now...

I have friends at JB who were furloughed from UAL... one is staying here, one is thinking of going back... My friend who is staying at JB did all the pros and cons, with QOL and not having to commute, plus he'll be able to upgrade to Bus Capt, weighing on his final decision...

That all being said... JB is still a good place to work, with really nice people and a management that is open and does seem to care,
Good luck with your decision...
 
Had a little private conversation....there was NO letter.

I'll eat a little crow when required. Might not be required here.

Anyone who can compete at an Olympic level probably has personality with some STRONG edges. Not everyone digs those types. Then again--not everyone finds fighter pilots cuddly, but I have quite a few that are lifelong friends.

If you hated her at United--you got your wish--she ain't there. She won't be back. Instead of being PO'd, however--you ought to say "thanks...", as everyone moved up a number when she left. (Come to think of it, I wish about 1000 Fedex captains would leave to make a statement too!...maybe that MD11 Capt job wouldn't be so far away...)

She lied to you "Eagle" driver....sorry!

MEC has the letter. THATS A FACT JACK!
 
How much time did Rick Dubinsky have when he got hired at UAL

That was back in the 60's? What is you point?

Rick and Sled driver are WAY too different animals....nice try clown face!
 
So using that line of thinking, JetBlue ought to be able to accumulate that kind of cash too. Right?

I would go with which ever of the two has the best personal advantages for you - commuting, etc. The compensation at both airlines is awful.

Agreed! Because that's all that's left in the end...QOL
As I've said before, tough to compare 75 years to 6 years.
 
So using that line of thinking, JetBlue ought to be able to accumulate that kind of cash too. Right?

I would go with which ever of the two has the best personal advantages for you - commuting, etc. The compensation at both airlines is awful.


I might add that bankrupcty has beautiful benefits that both Wall Street and the airline managements enjoy.
 
Not only that she used to rag on all the guys who worked at commuters about how she "fits" in at UAL even though she had 325TT! She use to be on the old Compuserve forums I think it was called AVSIG back then.

I am GLAD she is no longer working at UAL. I hope a bunch more of the Wonder Children leave as well!

325 TT.. Disgusting.
 
Is this her posting?


One of the very nice features of a job offer at JetBlue is that you don't have to worry about making your mortgage on EMB rates if you don't want to. All new hires are given a choice of an EMB class date or an A320 class date. So far the EMB slots go quicker than the A320 slots, so you would have no problem getting A320 if that is your choice. All the naysayers who said "nobody would want to be an E190 FO" have been proven wrong. Given a choice, many new hires WANT to fly the E190.

Most (if not all) other airlines assign you to your first plane, based on the "needs of the service". At JetBlue, you get a choice. If you want quick upgrade and don't want to sit reserve, take the E190. If you want slower upgrade, longer reserve, but more pay, then take the A320.

Skirt

P.S. Yeah, I expect at some point the EMB FO pay rate will be addressed too once the aircraft proves to be profitable in service and the upgrade extends significantly.
Last edited by skirt : 01-04-2006 at 14:13.
 
Sonny:

If you are so sure about this letter.....produce it!

Don't give me any hockey about how it is privileged information....if it was sent to the ALPA MEC at UAL....it would be on the internet in a second considering how much you all loved her over there.

I still say BS on this one.

A350
 
Neither is a great choice

If you have any shot, pursue the package carriers.

Fedex and UPS are the only sensible game in town.
 
viking737, the rumor mill says yes.

I've got no beef with her; as someone else said, I moved up a line number. For everyone above me, I hope that very few of the bypassers return to United.
 
Today.
Back in 99/00, it was United, Delta, American.
Every dog has its day.


yeah, businesses and people are gonna stop shipping stuff someday so you cargo pilots watch out. besides, why ship stuff when you can fly and deliver it in person on jb or a ding fare at swa. that's how we will take down the box boys! genious!
 
Not hard to accumulate that kind of cash when you don't contribute to pensions any more and pay the rates they advertise now!. As for the MEC pursuing things, history has proven they will take care of themselves,,,again!
Mergers/aquisitions....that will be up to Wall Street and only Wall Street!


Our MEC is VERY junior but you knew that right? As far as rates, although pathetic compared too where we were, your kidding me right comparing it to your 190 rates?



Koko
 
yeah, businesses and people are gonna stop shipping stuff someday so you cargo pilots watch out. .... genious!

People won't have to stop "shipping stuff" for the box carriers to suffer severe setbacks. There are more people flying today than ever, yet pilot pay and career prospects for almost all pax carriers is terrible (on a historical, inflation adjusted basis).


PS the word is genius.
 
People won't have to stop "shipping stuff" for the box carriers to suffer severe setbacks.

Yep, 9/11 was almost the end of the box carriers. Plus, all the freight that is getting left behind because the box carriers can't get lift fast enough - those guys are going to get POed.
 
People won't have to stop "shipping stuff" for the box carriers to suffer severe setbacks. There are more people flying today than ever, yet pilot pay and career prospects for almost all pax carriers is terrible (on a historical, inflation adjusted basis).


PS the word is genius.

Actually the word is dork. I didnt capitalize anything either on that post, made it in haste. Oops -- there I go not using an apostrophe and some very questionable sentence structure.

 
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How did United finance the majority of its exit financing? I have heard they used a lot of debt financing vs. equity financing. A lot of airline managment think that is crazy and don't know what United was thinking.

Now United seems to be desperate to merge or be sold (i.e., attract new financing without losing face). Doesn't sound like a company that is confident in its business plan.
 
How did United finance the majority of its exit financing? I have heard they used a lot of debt financing vs. equity financing. A lot of airline managment think that is crazy and don't know what United was thinking.

Now United seems to be desperate to merge or be sold (i.e., attract new financing without losing face). Doesn't sound like a company that is confident in its business plan.

These are the type of questions you should be asking. My advice: do your own homework (far beyond starting a thread on flightinfo). After I turned down SWA in 2000 to go to UAL, only to be furloughed in '03, I was consoled by many pilots with statements like "You made the best decision at the time" or "Hey, no one could have known what would happen at UAL." It seemed like the only one not surprised was my dad, who wondered aloud to me when I started at UAL how a company with such a sick balance sheet could even be in business. Of course I listened instead to all of my fellow pilot buddies and their stories of 3 year upgrades, widebodies going to new hires, etc.

I will have to make a similar decision next year and either go back to UAL (I bypassed this summer) or continue with US Airways and be near the bottom of the combined seniority list. When the time comes, this time I will approach the decision like an investor would, and dig into the numbers. The stuff we all care about--pay, work rules, a/c orders, upgrade times, contracts, mergers, future hiring....it is all either temporary or too hard to predict.

There are a few things about your airline that are predictable and long lasting that you should pay attention to. The first is culture. Management teams come and go, but by and large, a company's culture endures. The second is long term debt. It hangs like a dark cloud over many a legacy carrier, and is hard to get rid of, even in bankruptcy. Cash on hand is nice, but the more of that there is, the more irresponsible your management will get with it! SWA's control of their long-term debt is a big reason behind their consistent profitablility. Lastly, you have to take a hard look at where you would stand in the pilot group. I was hired at age 36 at UAL, near the end of a massive 6 year hiring wave. Many in this wave are younger than I am. I was originally projected to never get higher than about 2400 on the list (I know this will change after some of the furloughees don't return). The best I can expect at United is to be a narrowbody Capt or widebody F/O. Someone posted some good stuff about the JB group, and how all of the 320 Captains for all of the forecast growth are already on the property (and pretty young, I might add).

Anyway, good thread. Funny to see how attitudes have changed over the past year. Good luck with your decision.
 
hey,albie,(just let me hijack this thread for a sec) ,you are a good man ,and a good friend to defend your female buddy the way you did,cheers, over and out.
 

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