Jetblue Loses $32m

[EWR_FO]

There is very little risk of the company taking a B plan from it's employees, it is the old A plan that the companies are ditching in favor of the new B plan.

There is no risk.

 

[Truckdriver]

Ahhh, I get it now. Its okay to starve someone first year IF they will make more later on. When we have 2 or greater year 190 FO (except by choice of course) then compensation will be a greater factor in applicant interest and we will raise it, or God forbid, hire regional FO's. Yikes!

It's sure much better to starve them for the first year then pay them good and give them a retirement than to starve them for the first two years then give them enough to buy Mac and Cheese Deluxe instead of regular Mac and Cheese until year 6.

 

[IronCityBlue]

no worries

Wow, somebody is having a bad day. I thought JBLU guys were always happy. First, I meant to say B plan. The company puts a set amount of money in each month and I bear the burden of market risk. The company is not subject to minimum contributions like they are with the A plans. A B plan is nothing more than a good 401K plan. There is very little risk of the company taking a B plan from it's employees, it is the old A plan that the companies are ditching in favor of the new B plan. I wish you luck with your 3% match and JBLU stock to retire on. you have much more risk with that than an B plan putting in 10%.

Second, I did not mean to say that 121 FO's are not qualified. I re-read my posts and it didn't come across the way I meant it to. I'm sorry if I offended you or anyone else out there. You do have to admit that the pool of qualified people that JBLU has had to pull from will get very small if they are only starting out at $37/hr. There are not many Military guys or Regional Captains that will work for $37-$40/hr for two years and most of the furloughed guys willing to work at JBLU are already working there. I also don't beleive that there are may legacy FO's or LCC FO's that would leave what they have to come to JBLU for those rates. The only pool that I can see people leaving to come to work for those rates would be the CFI guys and the regional FO's who already make nothing. JBLU to my knowledge has never dipped into that pool yet. I'm just saying that they may have to go to people that they have previously not considered due to experience like the regional 121 FO's and CFI guys.

No bad day here. And I too appologize if I came across as harsh. I was merely arguing a point. Longer upgrade times in the future, especially with the addition of the 190 at its current pay scales, will be something for us to consider.

When we get to that point, we will have to take an even closer look at the pilot job market (especially if there's a pilot shortage! haha!) and if our compensation structure is too low to attract quality applicants then we will, by sheer market force, be required to raise it.

I don't think career opportunities here are to that point yet though, nor do I think they will be for quite some time. Even with the sale of a few high time birds, we are still growing 20% a year and are still one of if not the fastest growing domestic airlines in the country. When you consider our premium pay structure, our average hourly rate for an average line is substantially higher than the base rate you see on airlinepilotcentral.

It will take a very long time (OPEC/"peak oil" induced oil crisis/world war/stock market crash or meteor the size of Texas not witstanding) for anyone to be stuck at 190 FO pay for longer than 2 years. At the very least one could go to the bus at 3rd year pay (again, with premium pay isn't that bad and is still better than some legacys) with a great schedule, and 190 upgrades will be available at or below 2 years for quite some time.

Cheers.

 

[IronCityBlue]

a buck in the hand is worth 2 in the bush

It's sure much better to starve them for the first year then pay them good and give them a retirement than to starve them for the first two years then give them enough to buy Mac and Cheese Deluxe instead of regular Mac and Cheese until year 6.

You're right about the B fund. It can't be taken away, but what's contributed sure can. Just like AlbieF15 said, there was a time not that long ago that SWA was looked down on. Plenty of folks left there to go to "real" majors for the easy 6 figure salary and multimillion dollar retirement. We all know what happened there. But the ones who stayed understood the link between company health and their long term success.

As for when you'd rather starve, I value money in your paycheck right now as significantly more valueable than at the uncertain end of a payscale you may never see or a retirement you may never get.

Just like the SWA pilots of the not too distant past, I think we value long term company health here as well. If we aren't around in a year or two, it won't matter. But if we are, and I believe we will be, we will get profit sharing again and the stock options will be worth a nice sum of money. Again, if they aren't then its because we folded as some have predicted and it won't be an issue. And our base rate is substantially augmented by our generous premium pay structure. So that 37 you see is way higher than other 37's in the industry. 190 upgrades will be at or near 2 years for a very long time (world war/peak oil or asteroids the size of Texas not withstanding) and even people "forced" to go to the 190 will be able to go right seat of the bus long after 190 upgrades slow to a trickle. By then years will have passed, we will be back in the black, the 190 will have prooven itself as a revenue producing machine and we will raise the rates just like we did for the bus, just as was promised then. If not, our leadership will have 3000 dissapointed pilots who will be holding them accountable, don't worry.

 

[Truckdriver]

Iron City,

I agree with you 100%. I too am just stirring the pot here on flight info and personally would much rather work for JBLU than any of the legacy carriers out there. Great leadership with a good culture means much more than a little more money working for a company that doesn't care about you. Now if they would put a bunch of those 190's out on the left coast then maybe the $37/hr wouldn't look so bad to some of us! If I worked at JBLU I would have to make almost a transcon commute to JFK for $37/hr. If I could commute into LGB or OAK, then it wouldn't be such a big deal. Has anyone heard what new cities are coming down the pipe this year. The quarterly stuff said they were going to add more than the 8 cities previously planned.

 

[Kayman]

call me naive but how does the "premium pay structure" work at JB

 

[JBPA]

When you consider our premium pay structure, our average hourly rate for an average line is substantially higher than the base rate you see on airlinepilotcentral.

Substantially higher? I wouldn't call it substantial. Here's an example using my rates.

Yr 5 CA 121/hr.

My May schedule appr 83 credit hours

70 x 121 = 8470 + 13 x 181.50 (premium rate) = 2359.50 = 10829.50 (not counting per diem)

Blended rate = 10829.50/83 = 130.48/hr

I personally wouldn't call 9 bucks/hour over my base rate 'substantial' (7%-ish). I could care less what other captains at other places make now(remember what they used to make?). Either 121/hr or 130.50.hr is too little to command a 156-seat jet.

Getting back to the topic. I'd personally rather 'suck it up' for a year at FEX/UPS/CAL/SWA and then make a lot more money in the out years instead of staying on our rather shallow pay curves. The latest news (A-320 slowdown/CQFO) demonstrates that we (pawns) don't really have a dog in the fight and basically take what is given to us. It'd be diffucult for most newhires (30's-40's w/families) to survive on 30-40 bucks/hour for a couple of years and personally, I'd either go elsewhere or do something else. Good luck to you if you have no other options.

 

[IB6 UB9]

Substantially higher? I wouldn't call it substantial. Here's an example using my rates.

Yr 5 CA 121/hr.

My May schedule appr 83 credit hours

70 x 121 = 8470 + 13 x 181.50 (premium rate) = 2359.50 = 10829.50 (not counting per diem)

Blended rate = 10829.50/83 = 130.48/hr

I personally wouldn't call 9 bucks/hour over my base rate 'substantial' (7%-ish). I could care less what other captains at other places make now(remember what they used to make?). Either 121/hr or 130.50.hr is too little to command a 156-seat jet.

Getting back to the topic. I'd personally rather 'suck it up' for a year at FEX/UPS/CAL/SWA and then make a lot more money in the out years instead of staying on our rather shallow pay curves. The latest news (A-320 slowdown/CQFO) demonstrates that we (pawns) don't really have a dog in the fight and basically take what is given to us. It'd be diffucult for most newhires (30's-40's w/families) to survive on 30-40 bucks/hour for a couple of years and personally, I'd either go elsewhere or do something else. Good luck to you if you have no other options.

I don't care if you do or you don't, but I'll bet you don't work here. If you can prove me wrong I'll eat my words. Wherever you work, all the best to you. BTW, I'd like to make more money too, and I'm all for raising the rates...when it is sensible to do so. There are a lot of 5 yr employees at airlines that are making $0 dollars an hour right now...they're furloughed...so I'm thinking that $130/hr for a 5 yr employee isn't all that bad in the grand scheme of things. Strictly my opinion of course, but your point "remember what they used to make" is not realistic.

 

[JBPA]

I don't care if you do or you don't, but I'll bet you don't work here. If you can prove me wrong I'll eat my words.

I hope you're hungry. Tim Horton's doughnut perhaps? Get it?

Dude,

I was simply pointing out that the blended rate is not substantially greater than our base rate (as someone else claimed it was). You can't argue with the math. And my comments thereafter about wages at other places was to preemptively thwart the die-hard koolaid folks that constantly compare our current rates with legacy rates (which OBTW have been raped by greedy, incompetent management). And my point is realistic (and sad/tragic).

I agree that our 5-year pay is better than a furloughed person's pay. Where in my post did I say that we need to raise our rates? I was simply stating that they are low and that the premium pay carrot is not as tasty as some would think (unless you're a ho'). Lastly, people searching for flying jobs should realize that there are better gigs than this place. And I think that they do. Did you take a gander at the latest new pilots PDF and look at the backgrounds (LOT less mil and furloughs/lot more regional and supplemental).

Edit: And on the topic of premium pay. It's gonna be a non-issue here pretty soon when we all get 70-ish hours. For the record, I support reducing targets in order to keep everyone working if things get that bad (and I hope they don't). If that also applies to the -190 than $37/hour aint gonna stretch that far, especially out west.

 

[AlbieF15]

Lot of Jetblue folks have skipped out of training or left the line for jobs at Southwest or FedEx lately. That wasn't something I was seeing a lot of 2 years ago. I think there will be pressure to move wages up a bit or accept a higher turnover rate.

 

[climbhappy]

Is growth the key for JB

Is growth the solution here? and is introducing all these markets a good idea?

I have seen others go into markets and when 6 months is up and the planes aren't full , they pull out.

Any Geniuses out there. How long should an airline give a market to develop based on historical or textbook methods?

 

[Bavarian Chef]

I hope you're hungry. Tim Horton's doughnut perhaps? Get it?

Dude,

I was simply pointing out that the blended rate is not substantially greater than our base rate (as someone else claimed it was). You can't argue with the math. And my comments thereafter about wages at other places was to preemptively thwart the die-hard koolaid folks that constantly compare our current rates with legacy rates (which OBTW have been raped by greedy, incompetent management). And my point is realistic (and sad/tragic).

I agree that our 5-year pay is better than a furloughed person's pay. Where in my post did I say that we need to raise our rates? I was simply stating that they are low and that the premium pay carrot is not as tasty as some would think (unless you're a ho'). Lastly, people searching for flying jobs should realize that there are better gigs than this place. And I think that they do. Did you take a gander at the latest new pilots PDF and look at the backgrounds (LOT less mil and furloughs/lot more regional and supplemental).

Edit: And on the topic of premium pay. It's gonna be a non-issue here pretty soon when we all get 70-ish hours. For the record, I support reducing targets in order to keep everyone working if things get that bad (and I hope they don't). If that also applies to the -190 than $37/hour aint gonna stretch that far, especially out west.

And you work at jb because ...? I mean come on, you knew what the pay was when you came onboard. I am not trying to suppress your right to anonymously post on a b.s. forum such as this, nor am I suggesting that you drink the kool-aid or else ............................. but I have to ask WTF, over?

Give us the reasons that you stay? Why put up with all this crap if you don't have to? Why not find a "better gig?"

 

[JBPA]

And you work at jb because ...? I mean come on, you knew what the pay was when you came onboard. I am not trying to suppress your right to anonymously post on a b.s. forum such as this, nor am I suggesting that you drink the kool-aid or else ............................. but I have to ask WTF, over?

Give us the reasons that you stay? Why put up with all this crap if you don't have to? Why not find a "better gig?"

Dude, stick with the humor, it's much more becoming for you. Once again, I'm getting berated for simply stating FACTS. Why do I work here you ask? That pesky mortgage and other associated bills. This is a job for me, not my life (like it seems to be for so many others on here). I bid, fly my trips, and when I'm home I'm home (except for wasting time on here!). No more, no less (and yes I give 110% when I'm at work before someone ?'s my values). I also don't get upset or cry when someone posts negative comments about my employer. Especially if they happen to be somewhat true. Oh yeah, where did I say that I have to endure a bunch of crap? I average 17 days off and usually get what I ask for. I simply stated that the blended rates (average lines)are not SUBSTANTIALLY higher than what you see on APC. And it's true that folks are seeking employment elsewhere.

Maybe your comments above are sarcasm with humorous intent? If not, sounds like you've been assimilated, with a heavy emphasis on the a$$.

Oh, and if a better gig came along I'd take it.

 

[GuppyPuppy]

Oh, and if a better gig came along I'd take it.

Amen, brother!

I'm not sure the company would mind either. After your training has been depreciated I think the company would rather have a fresh "gung-ho" on property than someone who's upset with the reduction in pay we get year after year. Like D3 says...Hey, we have 7,000 applications on file. You need to do what's best for you.

GP

 

[FlyBoeingJets]

Lot of Jetblue folks have skipped out of training or left the line for jobs at Southwest or FedEx lately. That wasn't something I was seeing a lot of 2 years ago. I think there will be pressure to move wages up a bit or accept a higher turnover rate.

Those are some gutsy calls to go to SWA. Leaving a job you can never go back to in case things don't work out as planned at the new one. FedEx is an easier call but with some of the same danger. Even though I think it's smart to jump for SWA, I feel for those starting back at the bottom with the worry of getting enough seniority before anything unexpected happens. The swallowing of pride being the new hire on reserve and listening to the "old" heads and their opinions like they are handed down like knowledge from God is not easy or pleasant. The stress of training and the cost to one's pocketbook are not to be taken lightly. Not to mention the inertia posed with the "if this is the smart choice why didn't I decide to move earlier" mental block to change.

Pilots are faced with some tough decisions this year. Jetblue has hit a bump. Is it temporary? Is the forecast recovery for the legacies for real this time? IMHO, it is very temporary and the quick moves by JetBlue will shorten the pain. But all bets are off if the price of oil gets worse or passengers stay home in droves. Legacy improvement will not really bite until '07 so a move this year is a much easier decision than next year.

Soon the move will be fraught with much more uncertainty (danger?). I don't envy those considering a job change in late '06 or '07. The landscape is changing and the "best" move might be to stay where you are right now, no matter how much it's killing you to just do something.

BTW, please put me on the record as no JetBlue hater. I'm just trying to read the tea leaves. As far as what has lowered the bar, we should look at deregulation and the railway labor act as MAJOR contributers as we consider the causes. If SWA and JetBlue had not come along, somebody else would have. Maybe later than SWA started, but inevitable. That is what the politicians had planned all along.

 

[lowecur]

Iron City,

I agree with you 100%. I too am just stirring the pot here on flight info and personally would much rather work for JBLU than any of the legacy carriers out there. Great leadership with a good culture means much more than a little more money working for a company that doesn't care about you. Now if they would put a bunch of those 190's out on the left coast then maybe the $37/hr wouldn't look so bad to some of us! If I worked at JBLU I would have to make almost a transcon commute to JFK for $37/hr. If I could commute into LGB or OAK, then it wouldn't be such a big deal. Has anyone heard what new cities are coming down the pipe this year. The quarterly stuff said they were going to add more than the 8 cities previously planned.

Jetblue needs a hub in the West, and there just isn't alot available. LGB just did not work out. Keep an eye on SLC for a buildup with the 190s if they decide to set up a large network of flts for the West Coast. SLC would be easily reachable for a 190 from most of the small to midsize cities contemplated in the East and Midwest. From there a spiderweb of 320 flts could be created for most markets on the West Coast. This would free up a few of the transcon 320s now used out of JFK/BOS/IAD.

The West is where the yields are. Just ask Southwest, Alaska, and the new US Airways.



imp:

 

[AlbieF15]

Insightful post, FBJs.

I saw the angst in the yes of a lot of US Air guys two years ago-desperate to go anywhere else. Now, with the Merger, many US Air guys appear (at least for now) to have a job for a while. The guys who didn't get furloughed may just hang on a while... Tough calls, tough game, and a nasty business....

 

[curtaindriver]

Lowecur, what do you mean LGB did not work out? How would you know that? Also, the "west is where the high yields are"....what? If that's true, it's because only 30% of the U.S. live west of the Mississippi. So maybe that's why there is not much room to grow out there. The converse is of course 70% of the population live on the other side of the "river" and maybe that's why JetBlue deems it responsible to grow significantly on the east side. I'm sure we will grow in the west, but it's not what's needed to get us back on track. SLC, although I would love to see that grow, I doubt that will happen.

CD

 

[General Lee]

Jetblue needs a hub in the West, and there just isn't alot available. LGB just did not work out. Keep an eye on SLC for a buildup with the 190s if they decide to set up a large network of flts for the West Coast. SLC would be easily reachable for a 190 from most of the small to midsize cities contemplated in the East and Midwest. From there a spiderweb of 320 flts could be created for most markets on the West Coast. This would free up a few of the transcon 320s now used out of JFK/BOS/IAD.

The West is where the yields are. Just ask Southwest, Alaska, and the new US Airways.



imp:

Any new gates available out there in SLC? Last time I went through there I didn't see any. Where did you come up with this one? There were double rows of RJs because there weren't any new gates. Can you come up with another western city that could have enough gates for a potential base? COS? There aren't many more with a lot of room.


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[FlyBoeingJets]

How would you know that? Also, the "west is where the high yields are"....what?

CD

Most of SWA's highest yielding markets are out West.

 

[lowecur]

Any new gates available out there in SLC? Last time I went through there I didn't see any. Where did you come up with this one? There were double rows of RJs because there weren't any new gates. Can you come up with another western city that could have enough gates for a potential base? COS? There aren't many more with a lot of room.


Bye Bye--General Lee

Obviously future plans would be predicated on what form DL takes if they emerge from 11. From what is going on at Comair, CVG is probably at the head of the class on getting the axe, although SLC could see a substantial reduction as well. SLC is a great hub airport and I'm sure DL is going to do everything in their power to keep it. The question will be can they afford to keep it.

It still not out of the realm of possibility to see B6 at DFW. A double dose of AirTran growth and Jetblue at that airport could be quite formidable to AMR. Time will tell.

imp:

 

[lowecur]

Lowecur, what do you mean LGB did not work out? How would you know that? It's called slot limitation, and with that, growth at the airport is capped. No hub, nada! Also, the "west is where the high yields are"....what? If that's true, it's because only 30% of the U.S. live west of the Mississippi. So maybe that's why there is not much room to grow out there. Exactly. The converse is of course 70% of the population live on the other side of the "river" and maybe that's why JetBlue deems it responsible to grow significantly on the east side. I'm sure we will grow in the west, but it's not what's needed to get us back on track. SLC, although I would love to see that grow, I doubt that will happen. DL's domestic future is entwined with ATL and SLC, so how they fair coming out of BK will be the determining factor.

CD

.....

imp:

 

[curtaindriver]

Lowecur, do you believe that Neeleman didn't realize that LGB was slot limited? That's why we fly to BUR and ONT. I firmly believe that we will grow in the west, but that's not on the forefront of the projected model. To use Airways, SWA, and Alaska to argue the west is where the money is, then you could use the same argument for United, Airways(east) Continental, Delta, NWA, AirTran as to why the East is where the money is. SWA is the only airline in the above listed making consant profits....(AirTran...I guess) And SWA is strong in the midwest and east as well.
Not trying to get in a "back and forth" with you, I have a lot of respect of your knowledge and enjoy your posts. But, to imply that we have to grow out west in order to strive in my opinion is absolutely incorrect.
Thanks, and I agree with GL....COS could be an option, but not SLC. I could be dead wrong, though. Usually am.
CD

 

[Booster]

Keeping the E190 in mind and the 70/30 split in population .... STL or MCI look pretty good. Go there and reach east or west from there.

 

[curtaindriver]

STL or MCI would be fantastic for me, from MO. I could see STL with the new expansion and the fact that AA has reduced so much out of there.

CD

 

[lowecur]

Lowecur, do you believe that Neeleman didn't realize that LGB was slot limited? Sure he knew, but he really thought they could get that overturned. That's why we fly to BUR and ONT. I firmly believe that we will grow in the west, but that's not on the forefront of the projected model. Actually we really don't know what the new model will look like as he said he didn't want to tip competitors. Jetblue wants to add add'l cities, but we don't know if thats 2 or 10. We don't know if he intends to limit these cities to just the Eastcoast or spread out and make it difficult for other airlines to predict the next move. To use Airways, SWA, and Alaska to argue the west is where the money is, then you could use the same argument for United, Airways(east) Continental, Delta, NWA, AirTran as to why the East is where the money is. SWA is the only airline in the above listed making consant profits....(AirTran...I guess) And SWA is strong in the midwest and east as well. It's common knowledge that yields are better out West because those three carriers dominate and have unofficially agreed not to get into fare wars.
Not trying to get in a "back and forth" with you, I have a lot of respect of your knowledge and enjoy your posts. But, to imply that we have to grow out west in order to strive in my opinion is absolutely incorrect.
Thanks, and I agree with GL....COS could be an option, but not SLC. I could be dead wrong, though. Usually am.
CD

Jetblue doesn't need the West in order to thrive, but they do need a hub with a large O&D base to be a viable threat in that part of the country. Running transcons from these cities back East is a losers game unless you can collect more revenue. It doesn't look like that's going to happen as all the competition has to do is run 25% of Jetblue's capacity on those routes in order to make it unprofitable for B6.

 

[GuppyPuppy]

Lowecur, do you believe that Neeleman didn't realize that LGB was slot limited? That's why we fly to BUR and ONT. I firmly believe that we will grow in the west, but that's not on the forefront of the projected model. To use Airways, SWA, and Alaska to argue the west is where the money is, then you could use the same argument for United, Airways(east) Continental, Delta, NWA, AirTran as to why the East is where the money is. SWA is the only airline in the above listed making consant profits....(AirTran...I guess) And SWA is strong in the midwest and east as well.
Not trying to get in a "back and forth" with you, I have a lot of respect of your knowledge and enjoy your posts. But, to imply that we have to grow out west in order to strive in my opinion is absolutely incorrect.
Thanks, and I agree with GL....COS could be an option, but not SLC. I could be dead wrong, though. Usually am.
CD

Did you know that about 16 of SWA's top 20 yield markets are the short haul flights on the west coast? (Includes PHX, LAS)

GP

 

[General Lee]

Obviously future plans would be predicated on what form DL takes if they emerge from 11. From what is going on at Comair, CVG is probably at the head of the class on getting the axe, although SLC could see a substantial reduction as well. SLC is a great hub airport and I'm sure DL is going to do everything in their power to keep it. The question will be can they afford to keep it.

It still not out of the realm of possibility to see B6 at DFW. A double dose of AirTran growth and Jetblue at that airport could be quite formidable to AMR. Time will tell.

imp:

Can they afford to keep SLC? They are bargaining for lower lease rates at CVG as we speak, and SLC has already worked with them I believe. You obviously haven't been to SLC lately. SLC doesn't want to lose DL, not even to JB. Delta brings the world to the center of the Mormon Church, and they want to keep it that way. JB has 3 flights a day--1 to JFK, and 2 to LGB.

Will JB go to DFW? They will get squashed by AA. Look at Airtran, they have had a problem with DFW and have already pulled back from LAX and BOS flights. AA rules DFW. So, please try again. Name another city that could possibly host a JB hub in the West. I still think Colorado Springs is a possibility since Western Pacific had a base there with gates.

Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[Dizel8]

"Sure he knew, but he really thought they could get that overturned".

That's funny, never heard that mentioned once!

 

[jetblue320]

You obviously haven't been to SLC lately. SLC doesn't want to lose DL, not even to JB. Delta brings the world to the center of the Mormon Church, and they want to keep it that way. JB has 3 flights a day--1 to JFK, and 2 to LGB.
Will JB go to DFW? They will get squashed by AA. Look at Airtran, they have had a problem with DFW and have already pulled back from LAX and BOS flights. AA rules DFW. So, please try again. Name another city that could possibly host a JB hub in the West. I still think Colorado Springs is a possibility since Western Pacific had a base there with gates.

Bye Bye--General Lee

DL doesn't want to lose SLC, especially to JB, for sure. But I can't seem to put my finger on why to don't have more service to SLC. I don't believe it's because of DL. Maybe it's some kind of secret Mormon mystic handshake or something??

In regards to JB in DFW, well, don't know if squashed is a good choice of words. AA had the same threatening tone when we started service to San Juan, and well, I don't think they exactly ran us out of town. Same thing goes for LGB.

Anyway...how ya been Ol' Buddy? Haven't seen you around these parts in a while.

C yaaaa