Jetblue Loses $32m

[Dumb Pilot]

I get lost when I read this...maybe if you finish the sentence it would help.

BTW...a witch rides a broom

I understand that the uncertainty that the rest of us feel about our current jobs is something that both the JB and SWA people are not used to. Thus your fearful comment.
I'm not saying to start printing resumes, All I'm saying is that the staying power of both this companies are going to be tested in a more leveled playing field once SWA starts paying current fuel prices and JB adjusts to the costs of a regular airline (Maintenance, higher wages as their employee groups gets senior ect.ect)
Lets see how your honeymoon relationship with management will unravel when this happens

When you get burned by your current airline, and then burned again later, you grow cynical. The idealistic atmosphere at JB gets under the skin of a lot of guys who feel they've been lied to.

I wish nothing but the best to any company, the more companies out there the better. All I'm saying is that your relationship with your management will strain when they are faced with declining profit margins, because at the end of the day. If they have to choose between employees and Benjamin's?

Something sounds wrong with this annual earnings for a first year FO at any regional! Care to explain how you arrived at this number?
you would need to make $52/hr for $78K. Not many RJ Fo's making $52/hr.

Who is talking about F/O salary? JB is paying $72/ hour to the Captains, the F/O's are making $35/hour. on the 190

And I posted this on response the question. What has UNIONIZED labor have done for you lately?

Answer, You are making less money for the same capacity A/C at your company than most of the regional. What has NON UNION labor done for you?

A union will be in your future once your management start showing their true colors.

I wouldn't be so prompt to dismiss unionized labor just because things are pretty now, in spite of what you think now, I can assure you. These people are not your friends

 

[Mamma]

I fly a CRJ 50 seater (1/2 the size of the 190) for the regional that pays second from the bottom and our first year reservists (Yes, we have some) are taking about 78K a year.

Something sounds wrong with this annual earnings for a first year FO at any regional! Care to explain how you arrived at this number?

e

I think he forgot to add the night job at Taco Bell.

 

[canyonblue]

He didn't figure this out all by himself. The original PSA was a successful intrastate California carrier for decades before Kelleher started Southwest.

It is public knowledge that they got the idea from AirCal and PSA.

 

[lowecur]

Huh? The E190 carries 90% more revenue for around 23 to 25% more cost (depending on stage length). If anyone is curious the CRJ900 does it for 20% more cost than the -200. Tough to compare the 900 to the 190. Better to look at the 175, where trip costs and CASM are advertised as 5% better than the 900 with dominant ergonomics.

Other items are catching up with jetBlue, from maintenance, crew longevity and insurance. The honeymoon is ending on schedule. Now it is time to go to work. Some items for jetBlue will nearly double, just to catch up with market rates for the services jetBlue uses. Mgt fell in love with cheap transcons with $50 oil instead of sticking to their original business model of opening small/mid sized mkts. They have the ability and the a/c(190) to turn RASM north with good profit margins. If DL/NWA remain viable, B6 will need to continue to tinker with 320 sales and deferrals until the 190 turns them into an airline with ability to turn profitable yields across the board.

New airlines are like college grads. Everyone sends them credit card applications and freebe offers in the mail to get their business. After a few years, the bills come due. JetBlue is still a well run airline, preferred by its customers. They just will have to adjust to reality going forward.

The end of 2006 should give true guidance on whether the mix is headed in the right direction. Close to 25% of the fleet will be 190, and yield mgt techniques can be graded with 4th Q 2005. WN will be next in line for another a/c type once the hedges run their course. I see negotiations of a new TA will start in June 06. I don't see anything happening on that till the hedges are drained dry.
imp:

 

[Charlie Brown]

Albie,
Great post, man.

 

[canyonblue]

WN will be next in line for another a/c type once the hedges run their course. imp:

787? woo-hoo!!!!!:beer:

 

[Falconjet]

One thought on the SW PFT (T = type rating).

SW does NOT require you to pay for anything!!!!!!!!!!!

All they require is that you have the type. Now I know that most people (myself included) by the type because they want to work for SW. That doesn't mean that you can't get the type with somebody else and then apply to SW.

SW is in no way, shape or form a PFT outfit. They simply have requirements for getting the job, and ONE of those is a type rating in the 73.

Back to your regularly scheduled bashing.

FJ

 

[Chest Rockwell]

Is there really any difference in a company making money off of those who buy a type rating for a chance at a job and those who sell "coaching" for the interview for a similar chance?

 

[AlbieF15]

Yes.

Interview prep with us. Pay $350-$375. Don't get hired--get full refund.

Buy a type rating. Pay $8,000. Don't get hired--get nothing--except a type rating that nobody else requires.

One of the things that I tried to do when I got into this was stay (as much as I could...) on the side of the customer. I wasn't impressed with the Air Inc model, and thought we could do better. Interview prep IS a business for us, but we have tried to ally ourselves with the client's outcome as much as possible. That is the number one reason we have a money back guarantee. Another reason is it makes it easy to separate yourself from comparisons to others who don't do business that way.

I doubt there is a single SWA pilot who regrets paying for the type. SWA is a great place to work. However, for every type sold to a successful interviewee, there (at least lately) seem to be about 8 sold to someone who wasn't so lucky.

My beef isn't with the guys at SWA. I was just pointing out that there doesn't seem to be a whole lot of complaining about a (perceived) ticket to the dance that costs $8000 that only pays off about 20% of the time.

If I were King (hah!), I'd say come interview! We'll take X percent of who we interview. Those lucky few have 8 weeks to get a type done, then they can show up in class. Who would lose in that scenario? Not me--folks would still prep for the interview. The interview doesn't change and its a zero risk proposition. SWA? Nope--they'd still get a motivated crew force ready to work hard and even pay (if they didn't have the type) to get the required training. Now the tough question: Who WOULD lose in that scenario? How much would they lose? How much would they spend to keep things just the way the are? Who would benefit under such an arrangement?

So--talk amongst yourselves...what do you think?

 

[FlyBoeingJets]

I see your point Albie.

I had a thread on who has the best hiring practices. This info falls into that category.

SWA is much different than the FedEx way of interviewing very few who apply.

The major difference is, if you have the cash to burn, $8000 gets you in the door. There is no way into the door at FedEx unless you already have the job thru a sponsor. 80-90% of FedEx interviewees get hired.

These are 2 old school ways of getting hired. My guess is each is a loyalty test and has its merits. I bet very few leave SWA or FedEx.

BTW, I could have done without the "Lowering the Bar" comments. Very overdone. I'm glad you freight guys have it so good. Lecturing the passenger guys is easier when you don't have to deal with ithose issues yourself.

What use is it to piss and moan about SWA's hiring practices?

 

[GogglesPisano]

My 2 cents:

I don't have a dog in this fight but I do have a lot of friends there. I really can't understand the animosity towards JB. I think Albie's post comes closest to nailing it.

Here you have a company with good labor-management relations. They fly new equipment and pay fairly well. Where else can someone get a job with an airline and not have to suffer food-stamp wages the first year? Could they get away with paying $26K like UPS? You bet they could -- but they don't. They want to treat their employees fairly. Looks like, with a little effort, a guy could make $65K year 1. Other than FedEx and some of the better supplementals, every other airline -- especially the legacies -- have a "you're lucky to work here, we'll pay you snot the first year and you'll like it, and don't complain because you're on probation," mentality. And those pay scales were negotiated in part by a "let's eat our young -- it's the senior guys that count" union. No wonder there are so many "walking wounded" furloughees at JB who like it there.

They don't have "revolving door" management like so many airlines out there, pocketing golden parachutes while raping pensions. They seem genuinely committed to the company and the employees. Time will tell if this continues, but to hope for it not to is pretty tasteless.

OK, back to the regularly-scheduled bashing.

 

[81Horse]

Schadenfreude.

That's what it is. Those Germans have a word for everything.

 

[cessnapilot]

One thought on the SW PFT (T = type rating).

SW does NOT require you to pay for anything!!!!!!!!!!!

All they require is that you have the type. Now I know that most people (myself included) by the type because they want to work for SW. That doesn't mean that you can't get the type with somebody else and then apply to SW.

SW is in no way, shape or form a PFT outfit. They simply have requirements for getting the job, and ONE of those is a type rating in the 73.

Back to your regularly scheduled bashing.

FJ

What are you smoking? Check out what training you get when you get to SWA to decide what they provide for you...

 

[RideandDrive]

JetBlue pays fairly well? I'm an f/o on the 190 making $30k a year on reserve. Plane weighs more than a DC9-30.

 

[savin47]

JetBlue pays fairly well? I'm an f/o on the 190 making $30k a year on reserve. Plane weighs more than a DC9-30.

You had a choice to bid the Bus. You bid the 190 despite knowing the low rates so you could have a quick upgrade. You will end up with more money in the end.

If no one volunteered to fly the airplane the rates would have gone up. The law of supply and demand.

You have no one to blame but your self.

 

[RideandDrive]

That's ridiculous. Regardless of choice those are the facts. It isn't about blame, but about adjusting pay scales so they reflect a fair wage.

What is your retort for the guys forced into the 190 after May 10?

 

[zkmayo]

That's ridiculous. Regardless of choice those are the facts. It isn't about blame, but about adjusting pay scales so they reflect a fair wage.

What is your retort for the guys forced into the 190 after May 10?

His point is that no one is being "forced into" the 190. You are already on the 190, and the others hired on/around/after May 10 have the option whether or not to take the job at Jetblue. After May until approx Dec/Jan, this means being a 190 Fo. No one is making anyone take the job just as no one forced you to choose the 190. You knew the risks and potential rewards before you made the decision to go to the 190 vs the 320. Unfortunately right now, the risks may be outweighing the rewards right now in the decision you made. I think it will improve for you though.

Not meaning to be to harsh, but thats the bottom line.

 

[RideandDrive]

I responded to someone saying the pay was fair. My opinion is the pay scales on the 190 are embarassing. He turns this into one of those you had a choice arguments when the underlying issue is the pay. Kinda the same attitude as the guys just happy to have a job.

It is sad so many Jetblue guys seem to be of the independent contractor mindset. This may explain why many deflect pay comments and bring up unrelated issues.

 

[savin47]

I responded to someone saying the pay was fair. My opinion is the pay scales on the 190 are embarassing. He turns this into one of those you had a choice arguments when the underlying issue is the pay. Kinda the same attitude as the guys just happy to have a job.

It is sad so many Jetblue guys seem to be of the independent contractor mindset. This may explain why many deflect pay comments and bring up unrelated issues.

I did not say the pay was fair. I think it should be the same as the bus.

I don't understand why you would bid it than complain about it.

As for a new guy, they have a legitimate beef. I could not work for those wages. However, the music has not stopped for you.

Right now the only vote for this pay is with our feet and you happily walked right into it.

 

[bluejuice787]

I responded to someone saying the pay was fair. My opinion is the pay scales on the 190 are embarassing. He turns this into one of those you had a choice arguments when the underlying issue is the pay. Kinda the same attitude as the guys just happy to have a job.

It is sad so many Jetblue guys seem to be of the independent contractor mindset. This may explain why many deflect pay comments and bring up unrelated issues.

I will address the pay issue with you. Be warned however that I am ultimately going to tell you to exercise some patience.

SWA has been in business for nearly 35 years. During those years many of the pilots understood that their individual performance was directly related to the bottom line. They also understood that the company was interested in market share which translated to growth. Now if you are an owner of a business (ie shares) you want it have steady strong growth. SWA guys understood this so well that they were not well paid for nearly 30 of those years.

When you come from a union background (like I did) you dont think like a business man/woman, but rather a socialist that demands his/her share because you are worth it. We know that business in America is not a perfect thing but you will be hard pressed to find socialist country that is better.

My point is to adopt a different attitude for a couple of years and allow JB to dismantle the legacies and take market share. Take our culture and replicate it and in the end my guess is that you will ultimately live a happier life. Patience will save your life.

Juice

edited for poor spelling, juice

 

[CaptSeth]

...............different attitude for a couple of years and allow JB to dismantle the legacies and take market share. Take our culture and replicate it and in the end my guess is that you will ultimately live a happier life. Patients will save your life.......

Juice

And the race to the bottom continues unabated. By the way, I think you're trying to say "patience." Get a spelling primer and do a few exercises between stopovers. Oh wait, you have to clean the cabin.

 

[banger]

His point is that no one is being "forced into" the 190. You are already on the 190, and the others hired on/around/after May 10 have the option whether or not to take the job at Jetblue. After May until approx Dec/Jan, this means being a 190 Fo. No one is making anyone take the job just as no one forced you to choose the 190. You knew the risks and potential rewards before you made the decision to go to the 190 vs the 320. Unfortunately right now, the risks may be outweighing the rewards right now in the decision you made. I think it will improve for you though.

Not meaning to be to harsh, but thats the bottom line.

Totally agree here! Nobody is being forced. First they don't have to take a job they don't want. Also I'm not sure but jetBlue might even be hiring people who don't want the 190 and deffering the training until a 320 class starts. I don't know that for any fact just going off past experience with jb.

 

[bluejuice787]

And the race to the bottom continues unabated. By the way, I think you're trying to say "patience." Get a spelling primer and do a few exercises between stopovers. Oh wait, you have to clean the cabin.

You are correct about the spelling. Usually I am a bit more vigilant.

Thanks for the edification,

Juice

 

[IronCityBlue]

apples to whatever

JetBlue pays fairly well? I'm an f/o on the 190 making $30k a year on reserve. Plane weighs more than a DC9-30.

Some (major) airlines out there are placing new hires into 757's and 767's, paying that or less.

That must be one heavy DC-9!

 

[Truckdriver]

Totally agree here! Nobody is being forced. First they don't have to take a job they don't want. Also I'm not sure but jetBlue might even be hiring people who don't want the 190 and deffering the training until a 320 class starts. I don't know that for any fact just going off past experience with jb.

I think if you get hired you will still have the choice as to which aircraft to choose. If you want the Bus, you will have to wait until December and potentially lose seniority #'s to those who choose the 190 this summer. The question is how many guys will choose the 190 this summer. They may find that they will have to dip into the CFI pool or 121 FO pool to find guys willing to work for $37/hr. If this happens, then maybe they will up the rates to attract more qualified pilots. I can't leave my job making over $70/hr with great retirement to work for $37/hr for the next two years. I think that they will find that most guys they interview will feel the same way. It will be interesting to see who they get to fill the 190 slots this summer because they are not going to get guys that are as qualified as they have been getting the past couple of years.

 

[Truckdriver]

Some (major) airlines out there are placing new hires into 757's and 767's, paying that or less.

That must be one heavy DC-9!

Like CAL. First year pay is $30/hr. The difference is that second year pay is almost $60/hr and they have an A plan that will contribute up to 10% of your pay. It is much easier to work for $30/hr for a year if there is some upside potential to the deal. JBLU looks like there isn't going to be much upside for some time. Here is my prediction on JBLU progression. 190 FO for two years then 320 FO for two years then 190 CA for two years then 320 CA at about year 6. 3% 401K match. There isn't much upside potential to going to JBLU now that things are slowing down. I'm not sure that it is worth working for $37-$39/hr for the first two years unless your a CFI or a regional FO. They need to bring the pay up or they aren't going to get the quality that they have been getting.

 

[IronCityBlue]

ouch

I think if you get hired you will still have the choice as to which aircraft to choose. If you want the Bus, you will have to wait until December and potentially lose seniority #'s to those who choose the 190 this summer. The question is how many guys will choose the 190 this summer. They may find that they will have to dip into the CFI pool or 121 FO pool to find guys willing to work for $37/hr. If this happens, then maybe they will up the rates to attract more qualified pilots. I have an interview in May and this whole deal completely changes my outlook on going to JBLU. I can't leave my job making over $70/hr with great retirement to work for $37/hr for the next two years, so I will wait for the Bus if I get hired. I think that they are going to find that most people who interview in May and June will be in the same boat. It will be interesting to see who they get to fill the 190 slots this summer because they are not going to get guys that are as qualified as they have been getting the past couple of years.

The 121 Fo pool, huh? You must mean those unqualified, wet behind the ears, Oakley wearing Academy grads who'se daddy's paid for everything so they could drag their rollerboard around playing airline pilot, right?

Except the thing is, there are a great many of skilled aviators who, due to industry turbulence and events beyond their controll never got to upgrade. Quite often in this industry it is the grace of God alone (even more powerful than the mighty seniority list based upgrade system itself!) that makes the difference between thousands of hours of jet PIC versus 4 SIC type ratings at 3 different airlines after 2 furloughs and a bankruptcy.

There are many great pilots who fit that description, and almost all are making less than our base rate of 37/hr, and most of them don't get time and a half over 70, have a descent chance of making Captain this decade or work for a company where you control your own brand and destiny.

Maybe this summer, if no "qualified" pilots apply as you suggest apply here, we will have to dip into the dregs of the industry's unwashed career FO pool.

Its too bad you see it like that. Some of the best pilots I've flown with meet that criteria (except I'm pretty sure they all bathed regularly) and we would be privlidged to have a great deal of them here.

 

[IronCityBlue]

oh okay

Like CAL. First year pay is $30/hr. The difference is that second year pay is almost $60/hr and they have an A plan that will contribute up to 10% of your pay. It is much easier to work for $30/hr for a year if there is some upside potential to the deal. JBLU looks like there isn't going to be much upside for some time. Here is my prediction on JBLU progression. 190 FO for two years then 320 FO for two years then 190 CA for two years then 320 CA at about year 6. 3% 401K match. There isn't much upside potential to going to JBLU now that things are slowing down. I'm not sure that it is worth working for $37-$39/hr for the first two years unless your a CFI or a regional FO. They need to bring the pay up or they aren't going to get the quality that they have been getting.

Ahhh, I get it now. Its okay to starve someone first year IF they will make more later on. When we have 2 or greater year 190 FO (except by choice of course) then compensation will be a greater factor in applicant interest and we will raise it, or God forbid, hire regional FO's. Yikes!

Oh, and going to a major for the A plan, huh? Good luck with that one.

And PIC time alone isn't always an indicator of "quality" as you say. Sometimes its nothing whatsoever more than quantity.

 

[GogglesPisano]

That $37/hr is still higher that what the legacies/UPS pay. Just a fact.

 

[Truckdriver]

Oh, and going to a major for the A plan, huh? Good luck with that one.

Wow, somebody is having a bad day. I thought JBLU guys were always happy. First, I meant to say B plan. The company puts a set amount of money in each month and I bear the burden of market risk. The company is not subject to minimum contributions like they are with the A plans. A B plan is nothing more than a good 401K plan. There is very little risk of the company taking a B plan from it's employees, it is the old A plan that the companies are ditching in favor of the new B plan. I wish you luck with your 3% match and JBLU stock to retire on. you have much more risk with that than an B plan putting in 10%.

Second, I did not mean to say that 121 FO's are not qualified. I re-read my posts and it didn't come across the way I meant it to. I'm sorry if I offended you or anyone else out there. You do have to admit that the pool of qualified people that JBLU has had to pull from will get very small if they are only starting out at $37/hr. There are not many Military guys or Regional Captains that will work for $37-$40/hr for two years and most of the furloughed guys willing to work at JBLU are already working there. I also don't beleive that there are may legacy FO's or LCC FO's that would leave what they have to come to JBLU for those rates. The only pool that I can see people leaving to come to work for those rates would be the CFI guys and the regional FO's who already make nothing. JBLU to my knowledge has never dipped into that pool yet. I'm just saying that they may have to go to people that they have previously not considered due to experience like the regional 121 FO's and CFI guys.